Free Speech Coalition is calling all industry stakeholders to a meeting to preview plans for Adult Production Health & Safety Services (APHSS). Performers, producers, agents and other industry members that are concerned with STD testing protocols and workplaces safety are encouraged to attend. Media will be allowed to attend an exclusive press conference, following the meeting.
The meeting is scheduled for May 26, at 1pm, at the Sportsmen’s Lodge in Studio City, with press conference following at 3:30pm in the same location. The address is 12833 Ventura Blvd., Studio City, CA, 91604.
“FSC has been in contact with numerous industry professionals and sexual health providers. Together, we are developing a solid program that will fill in the gaps resulting from AIM’s closure,” FSC Executive Director Diane Duke. “If you’re affected by the production side of the industry this is an essential meeting for you to attend.”
An agenda for the meeting is to be announced. Information will be released to industry media outlets, as well as on the FSC Blog, Facebook and Twitter @FSCArmy.
This is an open meeting for industry members only. Members of the general public will not be permitted to attend.
If you are an industry member or a media representative and planning to attend, please send an email to joanne@freespeechcoalition.com , so that FSC can estimate how many will be in attendance.
Right now Shelley and the Christian Mafia are making plans. Trying to figure out how she can most benefit from this meeting and use it for her own advantage to push her doctine out to even more people.
Right now the FSC is figuring out how to tell the performers that they, the performers, will continue to pay all the costs associacated with testing and any diseases they may get while working, and they will also have to pay to be part of the new database and ‘organization’ to protect the producers from any legal liability. And they are figuring out how to tell them that this is good for them becuase protecting producers from any costs or liability will get them more jobs.
And all they are doing is creating another organization that AFH, County Health, and Shelley Lubben can attack now that AIM is gone. Great move FSC. And all of those ‘industry friendly’ medical places for performers to go get tested, get ready to have County Health and OSHA at your doors with subpoenas as soon as the FSC makes the names of your clinics public. Expecially if they are clinics funded by the County or State in any way. LOL Only in porn.
“Only in porn?”
I don’t know if you know, joe know, but this whole country is fucked up, in regards to basic care and other things. I suppose you suppose the porn world should have a better system than this country? But I also suppose no one should be listening to anything you say anyway, since you’re just another angry, mentally disturbed internet coward attacking others while hiding behind your anonymity and pretending you care. You’ve really repeatedly shown how much “better” than you are than those you attack.
You fit into the category, Joe, of people who just don’t get it:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110518/us_yblog_thelookout/loud-cell-phone-talker-removed-from-quiet-car-by-police
Jeremy,
The personal bullshit aside did you notice these particlulat statements in the article above.
First it says,”Performers, producers and agents……are encouraged to attend.”
Then it says,”If you are affected by the PRODUCTION side of the industustry this is an ESSENTIAL meeting for you to attend.”
Wouldnt you think those at risk of getting diseases in the workplace would be the ESSENTIAL attendees at this meeting?
Now tell me whose best interest the FSC is really looking out for here?
Um – “Production side” would mean those that are in front of, as well as behind the camera. Performers are the main part of productions, or there’s no reason to turn on the cameras. What they don’t want is 900 private drivers, makeup artists, publicists and porn scribes cluttering up the meeting. LOL
@Sher,
When the FSC says ‘production side’ they mean producers.
If they thought it was ESSENTIAL for PERFORMERS to attend they would have said so. Being that the performers are the people, the only people, affected by stds in porn, wouldnt it be prudent to say that it is ESSENTIAL FOR PERFORMERS to attend in a ‘press release.’
Who could posibly be affected more than perfomrers?
The most essential group here should be the PERFORMERS. Why do you think they had seperate(but equal lol) meetings a few weeks ago, where incidently, only SEVEN perfomrers showed up?
Sher,
Whose best interests do you see being protected here? And can you not see the conflict of interest to claim to represent both the producers and the talent, seeng as how the talent currently pay all the medical bills and the producers pay absolutely nothing, and the current FSC plan is to keep it that way, with an additonall cost to PERFORMEFRS to join the new ‘organization?’
Why no ESSENTIAL call for performers to attend in this press release?
@Sher,
Without the producer to put up the money, there is no production, and no reason for the performer or the camera man to show up. It all starts with the PRODUCER, and that is where the buck should stop.
Producers are the ‘main’ part of production. Perfomers are nothing more than day laborers for the producers, interchangable parts, replaced on a daily basis. The producers remain the same, it is the talent who come and go. Producers sign the checks.
Or perhaps the press release should say, ” For those most affected by STD’s this is an essential meeting.” But there is still that little conflict to interest to get past.
@joe know – Read a little more carefully next time. It says “Performers, producers, agents and other industry members that are concerned with STD testing protocols and workplaces safety are encouraged to attend.” Have you noticed how that sentence includes the word performers?
I hate to say it but Joe is correct. I will be shocked if anyone OTHER then the performers is asked to bear the cost of this.
Everyone in America is struggling with piss poor health care that exists by sticking their fingers in a leaky wall to stop the leak just like the dutchboy of fables. When I go to my local medical center or emergency room its always full to capacity and you can be sure of a long wait (even if you have an apointment). You have to show your medical cards as well as a current picture ID so they can be sure you aren’t an illegal.
My doctor has to fill out a zillion forms all the time to get paid from the insurance company as well as yearly forms to fill out about my care (I have medicare).
Meanwhile the dukes, princes, and marquis (we call them Congressmen and Senators) have a different health care then the average person. They get the very best health care possible. They always get that hospital’s version of a Dr. House.
If our Congressmen and Senators had the same health care as the rest of the country you can be sure they would be ready to fix the system right away.
But they don’t have the same health care and there is way too much money to be made off the system (billions and billions of $$$ every year) so we get what we have now. I’m sure porn stars sit in the hospital waiting room with a number just like the rest of us and don’t get that special care.
@Trigger,
Yes, I see that they encurage performers to attend, and did you see how they then add that itis ESSENTIAL for those in the production to attend.
Trigger, do you see the conflict of interest.
Trigger, whose interests do you think tha FSC is MORE concerned with, the performers of producers, becuase they have completely different issues regarding stds. Currently, and under the new FSC plan, the performers carry ALL the costs, and now the FSC wants the performers to continue to carry ALL the costs, PLUS make the perfomers pay to join their new ‘organiztion’, while producers ocntinue to pay nothing. So, Trigger, who do you think the FSC is more concerned about protecting? I say producers, how about you?
@ Karfman,
I know you hate to say it, but thanks. Thats the problem on most of these forums. The truth is the one thing that most people hate to hear, and in the porn industry, the truth is the one thing that is feared more than anything else.
But why do you hate to agree with the truth? Why is the source of the truth more important to you than the truth itself?
This is getting very serious. With AIM gone, porn in California could disappear as we know it.
I never expected this.
@ origen
Yea it could and why wouldn’t it be expected? Look at the multitude of issues that have come to the surface over the past 6 months alone. One of the issues that’s received the most press – the pornwikileaks issue, is simply the visual manifestation of the unprofessional, immature & mafia like mentality that’s run rampant in the California porn industry for quite some time. I hate to say it, but AIM was the hub of the disfunctional “mob” family that is the SFV porn industry. The only mafia that’s acceptable to be a part of in the USA is our government – and if you don’t like that fact – there are many other countries to live and work in – try Canada (oh – sorry – quite of few of you are from there aye?)
I’ll tell you right now the future of porn – Nextdoorstudios (a Canadian company strangely enough – mafia XP meet mafia Ipad 2). Condoms – check. Venturing to Phoenix – check. Primarily online distribution – check. Talent that doesn’t look sickly – check. Open to saturation of the gay AND straight marketplace – check. Fair wages to their independent and contracted talent – check.
It’s a shame that the porn biz is so full of losers and that I wish most of the industry to spend eternity in hell, because I find the actual mechanics and politics of the porn industry quite interesting and predictable. You know, there’s a reason why Derek Hay was the first guy attacked by the PWL group – it’s because like it or not he’s tied into the future of porn – at least as I see it. You can’t fight the future – it’s cumming – right up most of the porn industry’s ass.
All of you people are getting all worked up over nothing. Talent Testing is doing a fine job and is only $110 per test.
Furthermore they have draw stations everywhere including outside California.
Its simple; If FSC cant give the same quality test cheaper than $110, they will be out of business before they are even in business.
If FSC can do it for $95 they will get all of the adult business. If they try and “sell” the adult industry with over priced bullshit, they will be out of business fast.
FSC, the choice is yours. $95 for the win or be the next AIM.
With FSC in this mess and everyone else gunning for some air time it is going to be a mess. Talent Testing will have the same issues AIM had in that OSHA and everyone else is going to be breathing down their necks trying to shut them down.
Porn has basically been called legal in this country so those that disagree with it the Shelly’s of the world and OSHA are going to go at the next best thing which is testing centers. If you can’t stop a raging bull head on then stop it from behind or the side. If for a minute FSC is not in bed to some degree with OSHA and who ever else the government has coming you need some new glasses.
I just crossed 15 years in this business in that time I have seen more then my fair share of prosecutions, raids and general bullshit. Sadly AIM may of may not of been the best but at least they stuck to their guns and did a dam fine job of protecting people in this industry. We may not of always like it but in the end AIM probably saved 100 of lives and who knows what ever else not due to some extremely stupid idiots in the talent ranks and production sides. We all know everyone sleeps around just think about it for a bit.
I have basically gone mainstream in the last 3 years for many reasons one of them being the risk factors pus the lack of general talent. Least of all my profit margins sucked. I remember the days of paying $500 for a scene with a smoking hot girl and making 15k off that one scene. Now I am lucky to clear 15k for an entire 6 to 10 scene movie. The net used to be good as well now it is too cluttered with free content from all the affiliate program idiots.
Everyone in this industry should watch their backs. Especially with this economy and the republicans in office again. Nothing makes better headlines then porn going down.
You hit the nail right on the head, Johnny. TTS is gonna face the same bullshit AIM did.
Truthfully, the only way porn can survive now is if the size of the Industry is cut in half. To get the regulators off our backs there needs to be a system in place that emphasizes the independence of individual performers while assuring their safety (paid health insurance/paid testing).
There are going to have to be a lot less performers in porn and a lot less producers–but the big studios can survive and that’s all the Industry needs.
Its time for the oligarchs to rise up.
The mopes that are making porn for some shithole website so they and their friends can fuck porn stars on camera needs to go away too.
Sites like Creampie Surprise, Creampie Cuties, and Mail Order Brides seem to be set up so the guys running it get laid and make a few bucks at the same time.
Where are the FSC’s PR people? Porn stars should be advocating on the airwaves right about now…
@Karma
That’s a little bold of a statement. If the only pussy I could manage to get was on camera, under lights, and with others possibly present, than I doubt I’d be enjoying the whole “lay” aspect of it.
Look at the dude Torbo (I think he is in Spain). He is fat and uglier then a bucket full of assholes and has a small cock. Yet he gets to bang lots of really good looking women like Jane Darling. Tell me he isn’t in it to get laid.
joe and monica have good observations.
aim (fsc) always played like they were on the performer side, but in reality they were funded by the production side and aim was initially put in place by the industry, not by the performers.
it was a way for a girl coming from the bus stop could feel secure to do hardcore porn, and the truth is the industry needs girls like that…
i like torbe 🙁
I don’t understand why the performers shouldn’t foot the bill when it comes to testing, except when they are under contract. Producers put up the investment capital, spend the time finding locations, paying for locations, editing the film, paying for any other misc operating expenses, and take all the risk (legal and financial)…
The performers are paid as vendors, NOT employees, except when they are contracted with one company. In all honesty, performers have the opportunity to make a respectable wage witn the possibilty of only working a couple of hours a day. Not to mention the fact that the exposure can help to increase their own ‘brand’…
Plus, how would you regulate such payment from producers? Would you make it regulatory for any producer to pay into a ‘fund’ before being allowed to shoot? And who would decide who can test there? From what Ive read, there a good portion of people who test and never appear in anything… Someone looking for a cheap way to test can just claim to be an aspiring performer.
Claiming that the producer’s should be responsible for testing is foolish argument for worker’s rights. The fact of the matter is if a performer has an issue with paying for their own tests, they always have the right not to enter the industry.
While Ive read that AIM had some problems, their closing is a detrimant to the industry as whole. No matter how you look at it, no outbreaks occured under their watch. AIM closing plays solely into the hands of the false prophesizing Lubbenites and AHF’s compulsivness for control.
That’s fine about talent paying for testing, Voltaire, as long as hotels, t.v., cable and pay-per-view related companies would give us residuals! We need a porno version of Sally Field (Norma Rae) to hold up a “Union” sign, and start a fuckin’ movement!… Of course, all that would happen would be her getting bukkakee’d on.
As I understand it, only a couple of companies control those outlets… I feel like a collective bargaining agreement could be established without bringing the red tape a full-blown Union requires…
Just so you know, Voltaire, paid testing is only part of the overall argument. Really, its about ensuring that performers are protected from any injury or disease they might incur on a production set. Paid testing is just one more mechanism to manage risk and liability.
But that being said, performers should invest a little to keep costs low. Quid pro quo.
Protecting from ‘any’ and all injury is impossible… Performer’s need to decide the level of non-lethal risk they’re willing to take. I.e. If a performer decides to be condom-only, then they should be condom-only. If a performer is worried about herpes or the clap, then they should decide not to work with anyone who does not provide documentation that those tests have been cleared. My point is that the performers are adults and the government should not be telling them what they can and cannot do, such as mandatory condom usage. These aren’t children who need Big Brother guiding them through life, people can and must make their own decisions. While AIM was around, no HIV outbreaks occured. The construction industry alone causes hundreds of deaths a year in California. Yet CAL/OSHA and the Lubbenites are screaming for closure or reform in that industry…
***Yet CAL/OSHA and the Lubbenites AREN’T screaming for closure or reform in that industry…
Voltaire,
You just odnt get it. Your construcion indutsry analogy has been rebutted and dismissed many times.
The ocnstruction industry follows many safety regulations that minimize the inherent dangers of that ocupation, yet ACCIDENTS still happen. And when these accidents do happeh there are remedies for the accident victims.
In porn, there are no precautions taken, and the actions that cause the injury or illness are NOT ACCIDENTS. They are itentional acts, with inherent dangers, and no rememdies of any kind are offered to the affected employee. When the construction employee gets injured who pays? When the porn employee gets injured or diseased, who pays?
No one argues that accidents happen in other industries, but no one argues that the precautions that these industries are required by law to implement and enforce reduce those accidents and the severity of those accidents when they do happen. You will always hear the story about the construction worker buried when the trench collapses. What you dont hear are the other thousands upon thousands of worksites that never have those accidents happen because of the safety regulations that the construction industry follows.
Should a nurse have the choice to wear gloves when perfomring a medical procedure? Should the doctor performing the surgery on you have the choice to whar gloves or not? Should the food preperation have the choice to wash his hands or not?
If you choose to hire somebody to take a risk, producers amke choices too ya know, you assume liability for that risk. Nobody FORCED that producer to hire people to take risks, just like nobody forced the employee to accept the job offer from the PRODUCER. Aside from being illegal to require an HIV test as condition of employment, it is also illegal to require any pre-employment medical screening without paying for it, and it is also illegal to require that any legal pre employment screening be done at or by any specific entity.(some government entities are exempt from this regulation, private sector employers are not)
The porn industry alone causes thousands of cases of std’s every year. And just as it can be argued that those diseases come from outside the industry, the exact oppisite argument is just as valid, that porn workers infect as many non porn performers as they do fellow performers.
No matter which way you cut it Joe, hard fucking can result in a sore pussy. I’ve had plenty of girls that had trouble walking the next day, but that didn’t stop them from coming back for more. What do you have against porn, man? Are you a religious zealot that doesn’t masturbate? You have to have some sort of fascination with porn being on LIB every goddamn day of your life. Do you sit at home, stroking it while saying to yourself “yeah, she’s getting hurt and torn, but that’s not gonna’ stop my nut!!” Seriously, the words you type seem to contradict the life you put on to live.
Joe Know,
I honestly and truly hope this is the only time I feel compelled to respond to you…
First, your arguments would have been better suited in the ’90’s. Just because YOU have rebutted a statement hardly means that it has been dismissed. You are hardly the ultimate source of final proclamation in the outcomes of discussion and opinion.
Thank you for making my argument about the construction industry for me. For construction workers, certain industry regulations are in place to mitigate risk, but the fact remains that risk is still inherent. In the adult industry, requiring certain medical testing, are the steps taken to mitigate risk. Is there still risk, of course. In this situation the industry has chosen to self-regulate and has been successful (no HIV/AIDS breakouts with AIM conducting testing). Far more successful than the construction industry.
To correct you, it is not the act of giving someone HIV/AIDS that is intentional (unless one or more parties are aware they are infected and do not notify their partner(s) or opt out of the performance). The sexual act is intentional, just as it is intentional for a construction worker to build a home…
Further, something that seems beyond your capabilities to grasp is the nature of the Vendor/Employer relationship. As I stated before, unless the performers are under exclusive contract, they ARE NOT full-time or even part time employees. They are contracted work and thus it is not the employer’s responsibility to provide testing, healthcare, 401(k)’s,overtime, or benefits of any kind. Now, specific incidents can be challenged in court, but as a whole the Vendor/Employer relationship is a fact. If your issue is with the Vendor/Employer relationship, fine, argue that… But don’t complain that no-one’s paying for performer’s health benefits when legally it is not the responsibility of the employer to do so. Performer’s are entities within their own right, considered as seperate businesses, it is therefore their responsibility to provide whatever benefits they deem necessary. I should understand this, I work as an independent consultant…
You talk about Laws and Regulations as if you know them… Clearly you do not… Your denial or lack of understanding in the Vendor/Employer relationship proves as much. As does the fact that the Adult Industry has many opponents, yet the only place where this argument is heard are message boards. Even those who want the industry shut down understand that focusing on the Vendor/Employer relationship is not valid. Performer’s not under contract are clearly separate business entities and have the right to make their own decisions about how to market, take care of, and utilize their brand.
As for whether a nurse or any other medical professional should have the choice to wear rubber gloves, the answer is yes…
If a medical professional is adamant about not wearing gloves, than that choice is up to them. In turn I also have the option of choosing not to use that medical professional. Simple as that… Again, another concept that is apparently well beyond you, is that this is a choice between two adults. The medical professional’s choice and my choice. Now, in an emergency situation, this dilemma could change based on my ability to give consent or the availability of “gloves”. But, correct me if I’m wrong, I believe there is no such thing as an “Emergency Porn Shoot”.
Again, as for your analogy on the food preperation worker’s ability to choose to wash their hands, absolutely he should have that choice. As long as I am given the choice not to accept food from him.
Nobody’s putting a gun to any of the performer’s heads to shoot adult movies. Each performer needs to decide for themselves the level of risk they are willing to take. If they choose to go condom-only, fine, it is their choice. If they choose otherwise, fine, it is their choice. The idea that you, Joe, somehow knows what’s best for the performer’s, but they do not themselves, is ludicrous and quite frankly grossly presumptious…
As for STD’s at large, anyone who is sexually active understands these risks. It is quite easy to assume that the more sexually active you are, the greater the possibility of exposure. Again, this falls into anyone’s accepted personal risk.
Quite frankly Joe, I think you are trying desperately to punch above your intellectual weight. I have no problem with other people’s opinions, but you argue actual fact… The most astonishing thing to me is that you think you are making clear, concise, and legitimate premises. Your lack of articulation skills endears to what I expect from a sophomore in high-school. Your narcissism is absolutely fascinating! I wonder if your capable of understand that someone who posts under the name “Fartz” is FAR greater at articulating and adding profound statements to a discussion (Fartz, I mean that as a complement).
I bet when you were a kid, you thought getting the “Most Improved” tropy was a good thing (if you actually ever got a trpohy). What I guess I’m trying to say, is that everyone is entitled to their opinion, you just have no idea how to present that in a clear, concise, and intelligent way. There are a multitude of arguments that can be made against what I have said, but sadly you know none. Your arguments aren’t even a legal grey area, they are established… Thus,I suppose, is the plight of the “Message Board Warrior”…
I want to make clear that I’m not trying to discourage you Joe. I’m encouraging you to better yourself and seek more education. Take a Philosphy class at your local Community College to learn the structure and fallacy of arguments. I suggest you go back to some of your previous posts and create an outline and try to refine the intellectual prowess of what is written (I can assure you, none exists in it’s current state).
Now, if you please, I’m going to shut the blinds, turn off the lights, fire up some candles, listen to something with a good ol’ ’80’s sax, and watch some adult entertainment featuring performers without condoms. This has felt like an exercise with a child, something I DON’T plan on doing again…
As the Tin Man once said,”If I only had a brain…”
V
To summize Joe, you can post whatever you want, I have no issue with that. But keep in mind, that currently what you post makes you look ridiculous.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, your feeble attempt at articulating those opnions Joe, is where I’m trying to go with this…
What do you expect, Voltaire, from a guy who calls himself “Joe Know”.
“John Know”? No. “Bill Know”? No. “Joe Know”? How stupid and utterly clueless about the English language and logic do you have to be to not know the difference between “know” and “knows” and choose such a name? And anyone with the Margold-like arrogance to act like they “know” everything, time and again, always proves how ignorant they are… sort of like saying what a great guy Craig Valentine is.
Volaire,
First, it is ILLEGAL to require an HIV test as a condition of employment. That is a fact. For the industry to contend that making performers pay for their own tests is suffiecient protection is beyond absurd.
Current law requires that any employee, AFTER being exposed to OPIM, is entitled to testing and treatment at the employers expense. That is a fact.
Regarding the choice between two adults. That is fine in the private setting, but this is a WORKPLACE,not a private setting, and like it or not there are laws that govern the WORKPLACE.
But you show your true ignorance when you state that,YES, nurses and other medical professionals should have the choice to wear protective equipment. The absurdity of such a statement doesnt really even need to be rebutted. The sheer ignorance contained int hat one short paragraph is all that needs to be said.
“Regarding the choice between two adults. That is fine in the private setting, but this is a WORKPLACE,not a private setting, and like it or not there are laws that govern the WORKPLACE.”
The employee question has not been completely settled as a matter of legal fact. There is no statutory distinction and OSHA’s jurisdiction could certainly be called into question when it comes to small, independent porn producers (ie individual couples and swinger sites).
And Voltaire, Joe DOES bring up the arguments of the porn opposition fairly accurately. He may rant and goad from time to time but what he writes is typical of what AHF argues.
And let’s face it, AHF and NOT Pink Cross is Porn’s most significant enemy.
I guess what I expect from anyone who is going to make brash statements about the legality of an issue would at least have a basic understanding of the law….
Unfortunately, it seems as though some people with zero knowledge or experience in that field are compelled to make statements that are contrary to facts. And worse, to make those statements in such an unclear and uneducated way. It feels like the same type of arguments one would expect from a very remedial, beginner’s introduction to debate…
Well then inform me, sir, of the legality of the situation. I am genuinely eager to learn.
You’re not talking to me, are you Voltaire? I haven’t attacked you…
Origen,
He may make generalized comments that mimmick the adult industry opposition… My entire statement is in regards to what he wrote specifically towards me, not any other posts he has or has not made.
My whole point is the child- like way he formed his conclusions, the nefarious arguments he produced, and the fact that in that statement he obviously shows he has little to no understanding of the legal issues at hand or, qutie frankly, legal issues in general…
Face it, if he were correct, then the number of lawsuits from performers and former performers would be insurmountable. Fact is they are not… Why? Because what happens is, in fact, not illegal. At least until a legal judgement changes that.
And, by the way, the VENDOR/EMPLOYER issue has been settled, again, at least until the law is challenged and a different ruling given. There is even a specific criteria to distinguish between contracted labor and an ’employee’…
Again, these are facts, not opinions…
Origen, no, I was responding to Jeremy’s earlier post…
The comment was only about Joe…
Joe,
This, I promise you, will be the last time I respond to you on this topic. I have a very real problem with arguing with people who are unable to grasp even the most basic premises…
What you write about employees may or may not be true… I honestly have no idea. But, unless a performer is a ‘contract girl’, they are NOT employees. They are contracted vendors and thus the same are governed by the same rules. Think of it as a business to business (b2b) proposition…
***Are NOT governed by the same rules.
Voltaire,
You are 100% incorrect. Performers are employees. There is ample precendent that has estabished this. EVERY SINGLE TIME that OHSA has fined an adult industry employer for vilations of section 5193 the citations have been upheld. EVERY SINGLE TIME. And as we all know, well everyone here except you, OSHA only has authroity over the employer/employee relationship.
If you culd resond one more time,
How is it that EVERY SINGLE TIME that OSHA has fined an adult company on blood borne pathogetn violations those citations have been upheld? Because the performers are employes, and the companies were in violation of the law. And not one single time has an adult industry company ever taken OSHA to court.
You are simply wrong on this fact. Perfomrers are employees. The industry has conceded this point a LONG time ago. Ask Larry Flynt. He just got tagged a few weeks ago.
@Joe — No, Mr. Truth by Assertion, repeating something ad nauseum does not make it true — the “Big Lie” be damned. Certain adult performers have been found to be employees FOR PURPOSES OF WORKER’S COMP. That does not mean that the independent contractor relationship does not exist — it only means that, perhaps in the name of efficiency and public policy, it has been determined that within the context of production, the performers in those cases should be treated as employees for purposes of Worker’s Comp.
The adult industry has NOT ceded this point. The only attorney around the adult industry who keeps raising that particular construction is Michael “2257Safe” Fattorosi — who also happens to be the attorney of choice for disgruntled porn performers. You know him, Joe. You’ve quoted him to me before. 😉
As for OSHA, Flynt is currently CHALLENGING his recent OSHA citations. This would lead me to believe that the issue is NOT settled in the mind of LFP attorney Paul Cambria.
And OF COURSE OSHA wants to have performers ruled employees across the board, and in every context: name one regulatory entity that ever turned down the opportunity to regulate a field, or to regulate it more intrusively? OSHA ALWAYS takes the broadest construction; it’s called justifying your existence and job protection.
Again Joe… This is the exact scenario that makes me question any modicum of intelligence you posess. Hustler and the other companies were fined for not providing condoms. It is of CAL/OSHA’s opinion this is the only preventative measure, thus the other fines tacked on…
This has NOTHING to do with Vendor/Employee relationship or who should be responsible for paying for HIV tests. It is in no way, shape, or form even discussed in the Hustler fine…
Joe, its this lack of being able to differentiate discussions, topics, and facts that makes me firmly believe you do not have the mental capabilities or fortitude to understand complex reasoning, as a matter of fact, I honestly do not believe you have the capacity for basic reasoning. You obviously have not refined any critical reasoning or critical thinking skills. Even taking a few basic Community College classes would help you immensly…
I understand that not everyone is going to be intellectual equals, but you’re belligerent about it! Your incessant nosensical and uneducated posts are, quite frankly, draining…
From now on Joe, I’m not even going to read your posts. Its pointless and I do not care what you have to say…
Thank you Michael, for a little clarity on the issue…
Voltaire says, “From now on Joe, I’m not even going to read your posts. Its pointless and I do not care what you have to say…”
Good idea. I say we all just ignore “Joe Know”. It does a mind good.
@voltaire
Thanks for the words, man.
I will admit that I originally joined the LIB discussion in order to troll Lubbenites (read my first post. It was a doozy) and to compliment an inside joke between me and another clerk to see how many industry people I could get to type the word “Fartz”. But I found that I actually like the community here. Jeremy with his madcap shit, Origin who quotes the bible while cat-calling for Shelleys backside, The Col. who is greatly missed, Whitacre whose prose I greatly admire, and the rest of you degenerates (I mean that in the nicest way possible) all kept me coming back for more. That, and I’m real bored and pent up here at work.
And, to Joeknows credit, at least he gives us something to be passionate about. If there wasn’t a ying, it would be impossible to identify the yang. If we just ignored Joe, than LIB would be a less lively place. Let Joe say what he wants, it’s a democracy after all. It’s not like he doesn’t get kicked around for his extreme opinionfacts anyway.
lol Fartz….
But honestly I’m upset with Shelly. Michelle Avanti is back in porn. Does she even know that? Does she even care?
Is she really? How does the industry even take somebody like that back?
She’s in the new release of All Internal (16). She’s back in the biz unless they filmed that scene 2 and half years ago and are just NOW putting it on DVD…
In other news, the prolific ebony performer Pinky announced she is retiring last week…
It’s possible it took the scene years to be released though it’s not very likely. Either way I kind of doubt that Shelley cares.
Voltair, AGAIN you wrong on the facts. The largest part of the Hustler fine was for not having a written IIPP. I doubt you even know what that is, but that is what the largest fine was for. ANother part of the fine was for improper protocol following a blood borne pathoget expposure. The smallest fine was for not providing protective equipment.
And OSHA has jurisdiction because the performers are employees. These are simply the facts of the case. The fact that you dont like the facts is hardly reason to attack the messenger, but I wont be loosing any sleep over it as you and Jerry seem to be doing.
They are not employees, but it IS a workplace. There exist requirements for businesses to provide a safe place of work, just as shopkeepers have a duty to keep thir shops hazard-free. However, any attempt to circumvent constitutionally protected rights through the use of a regulatory scheme or regime is unconstitutional. It is on that basis that these condom-only regs will fall.
Lets see if you guys can comprehend this.
Quote from Deb Gold, Chief Safety Engineer for Cal-OSHA in response to fellow OSHA board member Jack Kastroffs inquiry as to who is an employee, who is th eemployer, and if they are indeed employees.
Her response, “We(OSHA) make that determination in every inspection that we conduct, not only in this industry but in every industry. But there are court decisions that go to that, that have found that performers in this industry are employees of specific producers or production companies or whatever. And we have found in our investigations enought inflrmation to move forward against individual companies on the basis that these perfomrers are employees. We have had the advice that genereally speaking the people working in this industry have an employee status, whether or not that is recognized for federal tax purposes.”
For the puroses of healht and safety….
The production comapny does not decide who is an employee. The director does not decide who is an employee. The pferformers do not decide who is an employee. Michael Whiteacre does not decide who is an employee. I do not decide who is an employee. OSHA decides who is an employee, and when it comes to the adult industry they say that YES, performers are employees.
NEVER has an OSHA citation of an adult industry company been dismissed because the performers were determined NOT to be employees. NEVER has an adult indsutry company gone any furhter than the OSHA appeals process to fight in COURT the employee status of a performer. OSHA has won EVERY SINGLE TIME they have fined an adult industry company.
Could it be made any more simple for you guys or do you still contend that perfomers are not employees?
The relevant portion of Deborah Gold’s quotation is: “we have had THE ADVICE that generally speaking the people working in this industry have an employee status” so, therefore, OSHA has decided to move forward against adult production companies.
That’s not quite the same thing as what you’re proclaiming, Joe.
But, of course, Ms. Gold’s answer was planned and designed to sound so very clear-cut. Naturally, OSHA’s own people read the situation that way — it’s in their interest to do so. OSHA ALWAYS wants to claim the power to move against industries — it justifies its existence. That’s what regulatory agencies do — they regulate, and they seek to regulate more and more. You don’t keep your funding (or guarantee your job security) if you turn down opportunities to broaden your reach, or to demonstrate that you’re “Debbie on the spot.”
OSHA makes a determination (not a “decision”) that certain workers are employees, but that determination is not gospel. OSHA is NOT the final arbiter. Such a determination only constitutues a regulatory agency’s application of a rule. Rules are challenged in court, the application of rules are challenged in court, and rules are changed or removed, ALL THE TIME.
You write, (although it doesn’t sound like you; for reasons too obvious to spell out, it sounds like a cut and paste job) “NEVER has an adult indsutry company gone any furhter than the OSHA appeals process to fight in COURT the employee status of a performer.”
Exactly, and that is for a number of reasons not the least of which is that the industry (through FSC) is currently working with OSHA, using the established process, to come up with new, modified, industry-appropriate regulations. But, because it hasn’t been pursued in court, all we have is OSHA’s take on it. Writing that ” OSHA has won EVERY SINGLE TIME” is hilarious — OF COURSE they did: they controlled the process!
The rule revision process that is going on right now is the first step. There’s no doubt in my mind this will end up in court.
But I guess those attorneys and other peripheral figures who were not respected enough to be asked to participate in that process are a little peeved.
Wrong yet again Michael.
The relevent part of her response is…”THere are court decisions that go to that….That performers in this industry are employees of specific producers, or productions companies or whatever.”
While these cout decisions were not appeals of OSHA fines, they were workers comp cases, and individual lawsuits, Kira Kenner, and Brooke Ashley are just two examples.
ANd Michael, the reason you give, that the iindustry is currently working with OSHA to adopt new industry appropriate regulations as the reason that no adult industry company has NEVER appealed an OSHA citation in court is laughable. Companies were getting sued, and fined by OSHA long before these negotions ever started. But I will do you one better, as usual. The reason no company has ever taken this cort is becase they know they would loose, and it is just cheaper to pay the fine than to take it to court.
And ther are thousands of times that OSHA fines have been sucessfully appealed to the OSHA boards that the eimplyers have prevailed in, even with OSHA “controlling the process.” Even TTBOY and Evasive Angel had parts of their fines dismissed during their appeals process, that was “controlled by OSHA.”
No, Joe, when Ms. Gold said, “There are court decisions that go to that” it was simply her biased interpretation. That is the position of OSHA, but it does not make it true, or correct, or right, or constitutional. Again, Worker’s Comp cases alone do not mean that all independent contractors hired in adult productions are per se employees in every sense – -as much as you guys would like it to mean that.
But, thank you for admitting that OSHA routinely misapplies its own rules and even has to dismiss part of the fines it imposes wrongly and inappropriately.
You write, “The reason no company has ever taken this cort [sic] is becase [sic] they know they would loose, [sic] and it is just cheaper to pay the fine than to take it to court.”
The first part of that statement is pure BS, but alas, the key to the truth lies in the second part. OSHA has established, and benefitted from, a system which discourages individuals and companies from demanding and enforcing their rights. It’s cheaper — and thereby more expedient — for companies to give in; to roll over and just take it. You know what the definition of expedience is, Joe? Pissing in your boots to keep your feet warm. Unfortunately for you, the time has arrived for Larry Flynt and others to piss all over this perverse system instead, by taking it to court.
LOL Michael, You thind Larry Fluynt will take this OSHA case to court. Hustler will take this to court the day your ‘independent analysis’ is released. The adult industry has had dozens of opportunities t challenge OSHA in court, aint happend yet.
If YOU are told where to be, you are told when to be there, you do not provide the material or equipment to do the necessary job, you do not provide the location to to do the job, you work directly under the supervision of someone else(the director), and you are essential to the completion of the job, then you are NOT an indepentdent contractor. And these are just a few of the criteria used to make this determination. None of them are mutually exclusive, but performers certainly fit, or dont fit into enough of the categories that are used to detemine and employee/employer relationship.
@Micael,,,Why do you think the FSC(who represents producers{employers{) is working with OSHA to adopt new regulations? Because they all accept that performers are employees. IF the industry thought that they could successfully fight the employee status of performers they would, and OSHA would be history. But they know they cant, and that is why they are working with OSHA instead of against them.
http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_independentcontractor.htm
@Joe – THAT is your analysis? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Joe, an adult performer DOES bring the instrumentalities / material / equipment / tools necessary to do the job: his or her genitalia + his or her voice and body for a performance. The only tools generally necessary are the tools of the craft (the skills of the performer) through the instrumentality of their faces voices and bodies.
I also LOVE the fact that you leave out the factors which don’t suit you, such as:
– Whether the service rendered requires a special skill;
– The alleged employee’s investment in the equipment or materials required by his or her task
– The length of time for which the services are to be performed;
– The degree of permanence of the working relationship;
– The method of payment, whether by time or by the job; and
– Whether or not the parties believe they are creating an employer-employee relationship may have some bearing on the question, but is not determinative since this is a question of law based on objective tests.
FSC is no doubt working with OSHA because it costs a lot less to develop a set of rules than to launch a costly court challenge, as I discussed above. Should rules that both sides can agree upon be promulgated, it will make things more comfortable NOW instead of later.
And let’s not forget one of the REAL reasons you guys want to see the producers pay for the performers’ HIV/STD tests — it would provide ONE MORE FACTOR. Suddenly the producers would be providing an instrumentality required for the performers to be able to work.
This whole line about “We care about the performers” and “why should the performers pay” is pure bullshit. You just want to GET THE PRODUCERS. This is an orchestrated, politically and financially motivated attack on the production side of the industry — PERIOD.
@Michael Whiteacre
While I’m sticking to my sabbatical against Joe (allegorically speaking of course), I have continued to read your responses…
Respectfully, to me it just seems pointless. On this board, he presents himself as being incapable of adding to the greater breadth of the discussion. An incapability to argue the greater points of what he considers ‘right or wrong’ (in the vast moral sense)… Instead, every discussion turns into a debate on the tangents of legality of an issue, something he is ill-equipped to discuss, something that ultimately will be decided by a judge and will change the status quo. It seems his ‘opinions’ are based solely on biased resources working toward their own self-preservation.
I guess what Im trying to say is that I have my opinion and others have theirs and I respect that. But these discussions veer away from the grander moralistic point of view and turn into squabbling over moot and mundane points which will be settled far away from this message board.
I respect dissenting opinions, I would just prefer something that is actually thought-provoking and forces me to consider the other side…
I guess perhaps it is my own fault, this is the first message board Ive ever posted on (hence the ‘corny’ name Voltaire…
)
@Voltaire – As I’m sure you understand, I don’t post here for Joe. (The great “Who’s Joe” scene from Howard Hawks’ brilliant Only Angels Have Wings (1939) just popped into my head.) I post so that clear-minded individuals may read of the varied elements of the debate (as I understand them), and recognize that the issues are far more nuanced than the usual “the porn industry doesn’t give a shit about people” or “porn producers and agents are bad people” rants.
Everything you just wrote is accurate, especially the part where you point out that “his ‘opinions’ are based solely on biased resources working toward their own self-preservation.” Nothing could be more true.
The veering away from “the grander point of view” and turning to “squabbling over moot and mundane points” is a perennial tactic of those bereft of honor, legitimacy and reason. They attempt to distract us from the very real machinations that affect us all, every day: the manipulation of fact, the constant spin game, the absolute and utter contempt for the average consumer and taxpayer. To these charlatans and hustlers we are all rubes, so easy malleable and so very stupid too.
Call it a weakness or call it a strength, but I find myself unable to sit idly by when honorable people whom I KNOW are defamed, abused, insulted and demonized by the self-interested who masquerade as guardians of social equity, and the idiots who support and enable them.
@Michael,
You have finally junped the shark. If you knew anything about OSHA regulations you would know that theynly call for HIV, HepBand Hep C testing, AFTER someone has been exposed in the workplace. ANd the total cost for these tests would be about $25.00. Is that really going to break the backs of porn producers? The funniest thing is the FSC is going to ‘negotiate’ for even more testing than is currently required, after exposure, than they currently do pre employment. Talk about pissing in your own boots.LOL
Cal-OSHA cannot pass any regulation that is not at least equal to the federal standard. And testing will NEVER be considered as prevention in OSHA’s eyes because they have no authority to madate pre employment screening. Its not my fault you dont understand OSHA regulations and how they work.
OSHA cannot mandate pre eemployment screening, therefore testing will never be considered equal to the existing standard, nor will pre employment screeneing EVER be a part of ANY OSHA regulation, period, end of conversation. SOrry if you dont like these facts, but thats the way it is whether you like it or not.
Thanks Michael… That’s valid reasoning…
@Joe – I have taken the time to read your latest post, but — sad to say — as usual it makes ABSOLUTELY no sense at all.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have a shot of Gentleman Jack and the final two reels of “Hobo With A Shotgun” waiting.
Cheers,
MW
P.S. See you soon
Holy shit, Whitacre. Rutger Hauer is a FUCKING God. My favorite actor of all time. Except for the entire cast of Robocop, so actually he would be my 33rd favorite actor of all time.
@Fartz – I met Hauer once, on an acquaintence’s set. He’s a loon — brilliant, but a loon. He likes to have scripts re-written so that he can carry some kind of deadly weapon in every scene.
Wasn’t he in ‘Confessions of a Dangerous Mind’? He did seem a little too comfortable in his role… Still, though, that was an underrated movie!
Whitacre, whose set was it? Soderbergh? Tarantino? David Lynch? I’m sure you mix with all the top directors since “Busty Cops”
Blind mutha fuckin’ Fury, people. One of the most entertaining balls of cinematic cheese ever to grace my TV screen.
Another brilliant Hauer film is a little B movie gem called “Deadlock”. It’s kind of like Speed without Keanu shitting the place up with his squinty-faced “whoas”.
My favorite Hauer performance would have to be in The Hitcher (the original, not the ultra-cheese re-make). When I saw that as a kid, the dude genuinely scared the shit out of me. Just like Kurtwood Smith in Robocop, I was convinced that this guy was a psychopath in real life.
@Fartz
Are you like Chris’ friend Carl from Family Guy? Just sitting behind your counter, asking what movies people have seen? Ha! Just messing around…
@Fartz – Ever see Flesh + Blood?
@voltaire
When I’m at work in the dead, dead, morning hours, I’m totally Carl from Family Guy. By the way, I loves me some H. Jon Benjamin. He doesn’t change his voice for any of the cartoon characters he plays, but his voice is so recognizable, that the characters become him.
@Whitacre
I will be adding that to the Netflix cue.
I really wish Cindi had an actual forum and not just a comments section. I could chat up some good shit on porn, movies, music and video games with you fuckers, but it feels weird doing it in a thread about the FSC.
@Fartz
What’s your favorite all-time video game? (Just trying to get a guage…)
That’s a tough, tough question as I’ve been gaming for at least 26 years. You go through so many phases in life. I’d probably say Xenogears for the PS1 with Fallout 3 following a close second.
@Fartz
A first-person shooter type… My favorite game of all time is Final Fantasy 12.
Ya got me all wrong. I dealt with the first person shooter aspects of Fallout 3 to experience the amazing post-apocalyptic sandbox and the 120+ hours it took to do everything there is to do in that game. My favorite genre is still JRPG’s even though they’re a dying breed. I dig any game that’s fun. I don’t do teh’ multi-playerz. Too many idiots and dickholes on XBOX Live to enjoy that experience.
@Fartz
You played any of the DragonAge series? Those are currently my favorite games…