Nirvana: Chris Novoselic
Interview by Frank Andrick in 1993
Nirvana’s 6′ 7" bassist, Chris (née Krist) Novoselic, is the American-born son of Croatian immigrants, a place that few of his peers in Seattle had ever heard of until the recent, tragic civil war in the former Jugoslavia, of which Croatia was a part.
Because this is where his family came from, when the hostilities broke out Chris tried to get as much information on what was happening as he could. But looking into the situation stunned, shocked and repelled him. "It really blew my mind to find out what a low level human behavior can sink to in terms of all the atrocities, especially the rape issue," Chris reflected. "It’s so insidious that it transcends ethnic hatred. It’s a sick kind of sexist hatred. It’s a situation where a patriarchal society has broken down, so the men suddenly had the opportunity to do whatever they wanted, with impunity. They did that by incorporating rape into their doctrine of ethnic cleansing. These atrocities are an unspoken part of that cleansing philosophy. I felt like I had to do something about it. At the very least send them some money and, if I’m lucky, try to raise some awareness about the situation."
Nirvana had always railed against the people they despised. In the liner notes for Nirvana’s compilation album, Insecticide, Kurt Cobain wrote, in regard to homophobes, racists, sexists and the like: "Don’t come to our fuckin’ shows, don’t buy our records. Just leave us the fuck alone! It disturbs us that plankton like you are part of our audience. Go away! We don’t want your money."
In the following interview, done in 1993, Chris clearly shows these ideals were not just Kurt’s, but his as well, as he talks about the reasons behind the benefit concert being staged by Nirvana for the victims of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
Q: It’s bizarre to me how easily some things become accepted, like the suspension of human rights and the belief in the minds of the aggressor/oppressor that such acts are permissible and justifiable. Whether the oppressor is Israel, Iraq, the United States, Serbia, or whoever, it almost always seems to go down so easily as to just become a way of life. But the taking away of life and human rights is never OK.
CHRIS: I don’t understand that either. You know, you don’t just live in a democracy. You have to participate in creating and maintaining one. It’s a mindset that you grow accustomed to. For instance, many of the people in Russia have been living under the Stalinist mentality for years; the same is true for most of Eastern Europe. None of these, of course, were really socialists or communists in the true sense. They were just scammers and dictators hiding behind that ideology. And now the jig is up. In the former USSR and other countries, they were eventually thrown out. The same in Yugoslavia. The old scammers, the crooks, were finally caught with their pants down. But instead of a somewhat orderly transition like what happened in Russia, these guys just went berserk. They started stirring up ethnic animosity and it escalated into a major human disaster.
Q: One of my best friends, Sasha Penn, was born and lived much of his life in the former Jugoslavia. His initial take when the atrocity information became public was that his homeland had always been the province of petty kingdoms and tribes who all hated each other’s guts and supported their hatred through racism, colonialism and socially sanctified murder and war.He saw the strong arm of the Communist regime as a power capable of quelling the fighting factions through fear and intimidation. With that fear removed, people reverted to their ancestral tribal hatreds and promptly began to kill and rape each other, just like in the old days. The iron fist of the Communist regime was the only force strong enough to hold these factions together without actual bloodshed. What’s your take on this analysis?
CHRIS: Yeah, it left a power vacuum. During the existence of the state of Yugoslavia, look at the number of marriages between Croatian and Serbian people. There were a lot. Things were beginning to smooth over. This (ethnic cleansing] disaster would not have happened if these (political] manipulators had not used the issue of nationalism for their benefit. The Serbians claim that the Croatians are back to the (USTASHA Regime], that the Fascists are back, just because there had been an occupational government in the 1940s under the Nazis.But check this out: Every country that was under German occupation had a puppet government that committed atrocities, like the Vichy government in France. Every one of them! To look at it in that historical context is just absurd. To follow that logic we would have to go bomb Vienna and even Paris. Kurt Waldheim was Secretary General of the United Nations, Prime Minister of Austria—and he had been in the Nazi SS. He was an officer in the SS in the Balkans operations.I’m not sure what’s going on in Russia as compared to the former Yugoslavia, but is seems to be a somewhat comparable situation in some respects. I get bad, unreliable information because a lot of the information I get about Russia is from and through the mainstream media. So, all that is really going on between Yeltsin and hard-liners is almost unintelligible, and I’m left with not enough information to know what is really going on.
Q: The feedback I get seems to go along the lines of, "So, we bought this democracy thing, gave it a try, and now, so what? Our lives aren’t better. We have less food and money and now we see a new order who are just as greedy, if not more so." So, for many it’s "meet the new boss, same as the old boss," and a feeling of being lied to one more time. It’s also, of course, a case of too much, too fast.
CHRIS: Why did there have to be this "cold turkey" transition? Why couldn’t there have been a gradual transition? Instead, it (Russia) tries to immediately turn into a total Western open market. The Germans, Americans and all these multinational corporations are moving in to scam up everybody’s natural resources. Look at China. China has a 15% growth rate. There’s more capitalism in China now. But since it is a gradual assimilation, it’s going to be a lot smoother than the havoc that the Western world, the international money market and everybody threw Russia into. The package that Boris Yeltsin bought will make Russia completely dependent on Western money and ideology and technology. It’s a shame that these manipulators and liars are taking advantage of millions of people in Russia.
Q: The Czech Republic is doing better, too, and that’s because they’ve been lucky enough to have Vaclav Havel. In his take on market and ideological transitions, Havel stresses, "We have two enemies. The return of totalitarianism, which is of course a very scary spectre; the other integrating all the new ideas from the West. It’s very easy to tell people that it’s not a good thing to have tanks roll down your street and to live in an obvious state of fear and repression. It’s another thing to look your children in the eye and try to tell them that they don’t really need that new red wagon they just saw advertised on television. It’s not really going to make you or your life better. Think about it in that context and you’ll see you’re buying into a consumer ideology just as insidious as the totalitarian one!"One is the tyranny of the idea, and one the tyranny of the object. It’s really hard to defuse, integrate or sublimate those two poles into something that becomes good. We have to integrate those things into our hearts by going beyond them. That will be the hardest thing to do, both as individuals and as a society. We are so easily impressed and therefore so easily bought and sold without knowing it or seeing it. So I think, in a Nietschean sense, we have to go "beyond good and evil" or, in this case, beyond the repression and lies of a totalitarian/consumerist establishment.
CHRIS: Boy, now you’re really talking some ideals. That’s socialism—or should I say, some progressive form of socialism, or maybe just a progressive form of all political ideals as we know them. That would be the kind of socialism, or democracy for that matter, where things could really begin to happen. But who knows if we are even capable of that? I’m not sure that we are. Sometimes we act so low that I wonder if we’re ever going to be able to live such a progressive existence. Ever! What do you think?
Q: Yeah, that’s the big question. We have to keep coming back to this stuff that we do to each other on an individual or global scale because we haven’t progressed beyond it. That’s why we have to keep learning, speaking out and acting in an exemplary manner, without buying into the "I’m superior" riff, which infects most people who have one leg up on their fellows. CHRIS: Yeah, that’s it! I guess that’s really it in a nutshell. We will produce what we are.
Q: Chris, is this important to you? To go to your grave knowing you’ve at least done something to make things better for the human condition? CHRIS: Yeah. Yeah, I think it is. One of the worst feelings is helplessness or hopelessness. And I think that, yeah, I’ve got to do my part, whatever that is, no matter how small it is.
Q: What’s your take on the way the current Clinton administration is handling things? CHRIS: In Bosnia/Jugoslavia? I don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes, man. First off, I have just lost so much respect for the United Nations. In fact, this loss of respect has developed into disdain for the UN. The UN and US administrations are just waffling when there are obvious aggressors in this situation. I know for a fact that the UN was made aware of atrocities in November of 1991 and once again in January of 1992. They knew what was going on back then and did absolutely nothing. They’re still negotiating and trying to work out their top secret, backroom deals. You know, they wanted to do some kind of peace conference and they wanted us to play some benefit to help the women and children in Bosnia-Herzegovina. When they asked I said, "NO! Go fucking fuck yourself! If you had been doing your job right, there wouldn’t be a disaster in Bosnia-Herzegovina right now. There wouldn’t be 150,000 people dead!"
Q: I know you want to establish a rape center. What steps are you taking to safeguard the money and how it’s going to be spent, so you don’t end up with a repeat of the Live Aid fiasco, where the food supplies and money only ended up in the hands of the scammers and manipulators?
CHRIS: The rape center is already in existence. There is already a group established, called the Bosnia-Herzegovina Women’s Group. They’ve been operating out of Bosnia-Herzegovina for a few years now. I’ve made sure the money is going to go directly into their bank account. It’s not going through any other hands whatsoever. I met them when I was in Bosnia last January, 1992. I was really inspired by what they were doing. They were doing it all on a volunteer basis. These women were working their 9-to-5 jobs and they were still treating people and going into the camps themselves. They were dealing with and trying to coordinate international humanitarian relief agencies. Providing ground support and distribution for them, directing their relief efforts, showing them, at great risk to themselves, where to go and where to take the needed supplies. So it’s like, now, man, they can use that money to set up an office, get a fax machine that’s their own and set up some computers, telephones and stuff.
Throughout the history of war, women have always been raped. Yet, somehow, rape has never been an issue. Like we were talking about before, rape has somehow been incorporated/integrated into the fabric of war. (Some say,] in war you kill, loot and rape and that’s too bad, but that’s war. That’s bullshit! It just all goes back to that patriarchal thing. One of the biggest problems with rape trauma is that a lot of the women cannot be found. They keep quiet due to cultural pressure. The women are not used to speaking out, so the way they deal with it is through silence. Even if peace comes tomorrow, the pain and shame will last for generations.
Q: Let’s talk about the band for a little bit now. Has this issue been something that has helped bring the band back together again? I don’t want to get into details of the past, but… It seemed, for a while there, that Nirvana was close to breaking up, whether from drug problems, spousal anxiety, jealousy, apathy or whatever. But from that mess you somehow got yourselves together again. Are you closer now because of this issue we’ve been discussing?
CHRIS: Yeah. You know, it was weird, man, really weird. It was weird just going from this band that played these bars to being called Number One, MTV superstars. The transition was kinda rough. We all reacted and overreacted to it in our own ways. Imagine what it’s like to be shopping in a supermarket and suddenly people come up to you and say, "Hey, man, you’re in Nirvana. Can I have your autograph?" People constantly ask you things like, "What’s it like, having so much money?" It seems like people are looking at you and pointing you out to others. It’s so funny, in a way. Just a year before we were always kinda alienated from the mainstream. A little over a year ago, people were tying yellow ribbons to their car antenna—or around their trees and doorknobs—in support of the Desert Storm war. In support of George Bush and his interests, and in support of the troops, people had those yellow ribbons everywhere. It was scary. I was totally freaked out by it. It broke my heart to see it.
So, anyway, our album comes out and everybody bought it. All those people for whom I had no respect were buying our record. I kept going, "Why do they like us?" I couldn’t understand. It became like a kind of crisis for me, for all of us. All of us at the time were going, "Oh, my God! What’s going on?"
Q: The last time I saw Nirvana was at the Warfield Theatre in San Francisco, just before Nevermind really hit it big. I can’t help remembering Kurt saying stuff like, "All I ever wanted was to be able to eat macaroni and cheese and be able to pay my rent. Now we’re dealing with this. We don’t know what’s going on. This is hitting us big time and we’re not ready for it."
CHRIS: Oh, yeah, there’s all these business angles to deal with and all this other shit. Now, it’s weird. I feel like I’ve grown up and matured since all this happened. All this pressure and weirdness had to be dealt with and stood up to. Yeah, it’s true it’s changed us, but I think it’s true that in the end it’s made us all better people.
Q: So you’re better for it? How?
CHRIS: Ah, yeah, I do think I’m better for it. I appreciate the money I’ve made. I can’t deny that. I’m very thankful that I’ve been so lucky. It’s great. It takes some of the pressures off you. Of course, it creates some new ones and feeds some of the old. Man, it’s true that those clichés are really there. It’s just like winning the lottery. That’s how I see it. I bought a house and a jukebox that I always wanted. You know, stuff like that.
Q: And now look at how you’re using the power of the press, and look at the places your money is going, like the rape center. It’s payback time in a good sense.
CHRIS: What happened is that Nevermind became a phenomenon in the music business. In the beginning, Geffen (Records] didn’t promote the album at all. They don’t know what happened. They had printed up 40,000 copies, which is what they thought we would sell in an initial pressing run. They sold out in the first two days. There was a week where no one could buy the record. It was sold out everywhere. At the same time, we were all over MTV. I think that really added to the hype about Nevermind and, consequently, Nirvana. Then, on the radio we had that hit song ("Smells Like Teen Spirit"] at a time where there was no other hard rock hit song, and hadn’t been in a long time. It was different.
The people at Geffen told me that they basically just stood against the wall and watched copies of the record fly out the door. They had never seen anything like it. It was a phenomenon. I don’t know what’s going to happen next, man. I mean, our next record (In Utero) is pretty edgy. It’s more along the lines of "Papercuts" or "Sifting" on our Bleach record. There’s still a lot of melodic but noisy stuff. I think Kurt came up with some really good, well-crafted songs. I mean, it’s not "Nevermind," that’s for sure.
Q: To me, one of Nirvana’s strengths is its ability to write songs that feature great melody, harmony and counterpoint all mixed up with such great noise. The miracle is the fact that you make it work through the forum of a 2- to 3-minute pop song. I’m looking forward to not so much as a return to the sound of Bleach, but an interpolation of the material found on Bleach and Nevermind, into something new from Nirvana. I’ve heard Kurt mention that he would not want to start his own label, à la the Sub Pop Records story, but he would like to be involved in supporting small, independent record labels or publishers, supporting a qualitative rather than quantitative approach to music and words. What would you like to do?
CHRIS: I don’t really know. I see myself becoming very active politically. I want to do it behind the scenes. I don’t want to do it like some rock’n’roll pundit. I’ve really become turned on again with the Bosnia-Herzegovina thing. I’ve always had an element of that in me, and now it’s really starting to emerge. I want to step out of the public aspect of the whole thing because, in the end, no matter what your intentions it just gets turned into some kind of personality thing. Guys like Sting do it, even guys like Bono and Michael Stipe. I think that most of them realize that, too, that it’s really a tricky situation to put yourself out there.
First off, I’m a bass player in a rock’n’roll band. That’s what I do. To be active is second nature to me. I’ve also tried to stay aware as much as possible. Now, with this awareness, suddenly comes this access to media, which I’m exploiting like hell at the moment! I don’t know if we’re really going to make a big change. I mean, this is just one concert. One concert, basically, to raise awareness and some money for something that we feel needs to exist. It’s these women who will be out on the lines helping, healing, doing it and living it every day of their lives.
Q: Chris, is there something you’d like to say as a last statement, something personal you’d like to close with?
CHRIS: I was brought up in the United States, where we live in a throw-away society. I was brought up with TV and cars and, within reason, could have most anything I wanted. My dad worked in a factory and my mom was a hairdresser. When I came of age it was easy for me to move out and live on my own. I could buy an old car for a couple of hundred dollars. I bought an old, junk TV set and an old stereo set-up. I mean, for me, I had all the amenities that a lot of people the world over are striving for. That’s what I think a whole lot of the change in Eastern Europe is all about. People are tired of going without. Besides the basics of good shelter, protection, food, education, etc, they also want stuff. Just stuff to have because sometimes the stuff you have is made out to be really important. I just gotta say, it’s not that important. You have the right to work, the right to freedom of thought and action—or so we like to think. The most important thing is who you are, how you do it and what you’re going to be. It’s a lot more important to be there for your friends and to educate yourself in whatever you need to make yourself more effective as an individual. Don’t back down from what you know to be right for you.
I don’t want to preach, I just want to say that if it’s in your nature to do something to change the order of things, then do it. Maybe by being what we want to be we can make things better. If you can, make a difference, please do!
Krist Novoselic, David Grohl & the late Kurt Cobain all rock as musicians, and as persons.
Keep on rockin’, Chris & Dave!
I loved this interview, brings back so many memories!!
But I disagree with Chris on this:
“None of these, of course, were really socialists or communists in the true sense. They were just scammers and dictators hiding behind that ideology.”
They WERE REAL SOCIALISTS AND COMMUNISTS, AND THEY WERE SCAMMERS.
Socialism and communism are just big scams, the illusion that everyone can live out of somebody else and that everybody is equal (but of course some are always more equal that the others). An they are dictators, socialism and communism need dictators. Someone has to say to others what is fair and what is right and what is equality. The dirty market cannot be thrusted, bueaucrats always know better.
Awesome find, Cindi. BTW, I heard Novoselic is packing heat…
Nirvana single handedly started the grunge movement with their 1991 album Never Mind. In the years that followed, many grunge bands came and left, and the grunge movement came to it’s inevitable end by the end of the 90’s. Apart from Nirvana, the most significant grunge bands were Alice In Chains, Pearl Jam and Soundgarden. To be honest, Nirvana are more like a one hit wonder band: the albums they released follwing Never Mind, even though decent, but never came close to capturing the brutality, raw emotions and unique style of Never Mind.
Many metal fans hate grunge and consider it moanings of a bunch of pathetic, middle class spoiled kids. I don’t look at grunge that way. It was one of many music styles of the 90’s, and some grunge bands released good albums; and a few of them that are still around continue to do so. For example Alice In Chain’s new album Black Gives Way to Blue is nothing short of a classic. Last year, when Alice In Chains announced they were going to record a new album with a new singer in more than a decade, I had some serious doubts. I thought they could never pull it off without late Layne Staley, their original singer. But when I got the album and started listening to it, the very first track, All Secrets Known, washed away all of my doubts; and I realized Alice In Chains are back for real. I’ll look forward to seeing them in concert.
Nirvana was never a grunge band, and they aren’t from Seattle, they started in Olympia. Only Bleach has grunge type shit on it and a couple In Utero tracks. Nirvana was a 70’s riff rock band mixed with punk and a touch of pop here and there. Compare Nirvana’s music to real grunge like Mudhoney, Soundgarden, the Melvins etc and there is no major similarities. The first Nirvana album on Sub Pop only sounds like that because Kurt felt compelled to sound like everything else, and the studio, Reciprocal, is where all the sub pop shit was recorded.
From Wikipedia:
‘Grunge became commercially successful in the first half of the 1990s, due mainly to the release of Nirvana’s Nevermind and Pearl Jam’s Ten. The success of these bands boosted the popularity of alternative rock and made grunge the most popular form of hard rock music at the time. However, many grunge bands were uncomfortable with this popularity. Although most grunge bands had disbanded or faded from view by the late 1990s, their influence continues to impact modern rock music.’
Kurt described it best “we are the Knack and the Bay City Rollers being molested by Black Flag and Black Sabbath.”
Smells Like Teen Spirit did single handidly start the alternative revolution which extended to other forms of music, fashion etc. That is the most powerful single in the history of popular music IMO because overnight all that cheesey 90’s shit was GONE, I mean gone without a trace. I grew up during 80’s backlash, and the lash was strong. Thanks to late 90’s cock rock bands like Creed and fake metal/rap bands like Limp Bizkit, it just came a full circle.
They got lumped into the Seatytle scene. If you know Nirvana’s music and what grunge sounds like, you would know its not really grunge.
HYPE! is an excellent doc on the Seattle music scene.
Ten is not a grunge album either. It’s a great album, but that’s just straight up rock. Listen to the traditional guitar solos. Kim Thayil of Soundgarden who is an excellent and underrated guitarist never played traditional solos.
Mudhoney, Melvins and Soundgarden are the godfathers of grunge.
I guess I left out Green River, which is just Pearl Jam and Mudhoney anyway….
Most underrated band by far from Seattle: Screaming Trees. Mark Lanegan = amazing, amazing singer
Nirvana was more than a one hit wonder band, Colonel.
They were definitely talented and influential but, as Stevie Strange once noted Nirvana killed off hair metal and changed the party scene into angst-ridden, depression- and the spirit of self-mutilation-ridden scenes. Go figure, though Kurt Cobain had Courtney Love as a gf… probably helped fuel his state…
Al’s right, “Ten” is great but not grunge.
Jeremy’s spoken.
Check the production on “In Utero” some of the best I’ve ever heard, and I have a background in audio. And Unplugged album is considered the best unplugged album ever. If Nirvana is a one hit wonder, what are the lame ass Sex Pistols?
You know Jeremy, I never liked hair metal bands (Motley Crue, LA Guns, Poison, etc.) anyway. The idea of writing songs about fucking girls in bathrooms never appealed to me; and I was glad they were killed off by grunge in the 90’s. Rock and Metal is and always has been about the rebellion, a *Fuck You* to the authorities; so in that regard, some long hair coke head wearing make up and bragging about how many groupies he banged the other night was never my cup of tea. My favorite bands from the 80’s are the likes of Iron Maiden, Venom, Kreator, Megadeth and Slayer; all of whom still kick ass.
Is there anything on Ten that sounds like this:
Even I will admit Motley Crues first album was pretty raw, when Tommy Lee was like 16
With regards to Nirvana’s bandmate relationship I always thought it was odd, and even they admitted they weren’t really the best of friends. Kurt and Chris grew up together, but they didn’t hang like that. Kurt did say some of the most fun in his life was when he and Dave shared an apartment in Olympia in 1991 before Nevermind came out at the time he had just become their drummer
Yeah, I wasn’t into putting on make-up, either, although I did it a couple of times and looked pretty, like a girl. First time I did that for Halloween as a kid my face broke out like mad, had bumps all over, my face looked like a pizza.. That was before hypoallergenic make-up.
and the liner notes he mentions were from Incesticide, which wasn’t a compilation album really. None of it was new material, but none of it had been released on an album before. Before that he talks about two guys who rape a girl while singing their song “Polly” which is actually an anti rape song, told through the perspective of the rapist. Heavy, heavy song to listen to. It’s also based on a true incident about a girl that was raped after a punk show in Washington. The way she was able to escape was by convincing the rapist she liked it so he trusted her and she escaped at a gas station.
It’s a shame that Courtney killed Kurt. It would’ve been interesting to hear what music he’d still be putting out to this day.
Interestingly, El Duce, of The Mentors, who said that Kourtney offered him fifty grand to off Cobain, for publicity’s sake formed a band called “Courtney Killed Kurt”. While investigators believed his testimony, El Duce personally did not believe, nor did he know who killed Kurt. But in the end, it was probably what cost him his life.
That movie is very interesting. They even did an Unsolved Mysteries about it. One of the biggest things I wanna know is who was using his credit card when they had already determined him to be dead. Another thing is there is no way he could have shot himself unless he did it with his toe, and being as though he had a huge amount of heroin in his system at the time I doubt he could even stay awake let alone maneuver a shotgun with his toe. Oh yeah, they also found him with his shoes ON.
AL, the guitar riffs on many top Nirvana songs like “Smells to like Teen Spirit”, “In Bloom”, “On a Plain”, “Lithium” or “Rape Me” are impposible not to identify as grunge. Don’t be fooled by The Pixies’ influence, they are still a grunge band. Don’t forget the strong connection Nirvana had to the Melvins. It was Buzz Osbourne who introduced Kurt and Novoselic to Grohl.
And “Ten” is quintessential grunge, AL! How can you say otherwise?
And Jeremy, lets just stop with the conspiracy theories here. Courtney Love may be a bad person, but she was awesome with Hole and Kurt was killed because of his drug use and mental instability and not because of her.
Or maybe…..
that’s not grunge, smells like teen spirit is just more than a feeling with a harder edge…. the soft verse loud chorous dynamic was never a major theme in grunge music, as in all of those songs you mentioned.
On Nevermind, maybe Breed can be called grunge. On In Utero Scentless Apprentice is pure grunge.
Ten sounds more influenced by the Rolling Stones and Jimi Hendrix than grunge. I posted “Touch Me, I’m Sick” by Mudhoney… THAT’S grunge
and in my opinion, “Louder Than Love” by Soundgarden is the best pure Seattle sound record ever made.
What the hell, AL! The feedback, distortion, stop-start, slow-tempo riffs… Like I said, Nirvana just used the Pixies’ sound in their melody arrangement but the instrumentals are unmistakably grunge.
How can you call Soundgarden grunge and not Pearl Jam? The bands are very similar and both Cornell and Vedder teamed up to form Temple of the Dog. Even their voices are alike.
Not the production though. The production on Nevermind and Ten would fit perfectly at home on a Motley Crue record. The production is a huge part of the grunge sound.
I never heard the whole temple of the dog CD and I did not like mother love bone, but the i’m going hungry song is not grunge either. Grunge is a limited category. Like I said, Touch Me I’m Sick is a perfect example of grunge, is there anything like that on Ten or Nevermind.
I think they are both really good singers, but honestly no one from that scene can match Chris Cornell for his voice, range (High G’s) and singing ability.
Nirvana knew that first record was produced weak for what they wanted. Don’t get me wrong, I like the production and I think Butch Vig is very talented, but that’s why the went with Steve Albini for In Utero. The Nevermind record is produced slick, with flanger and doubled vocals and shit like that,
coincidentally Albini produced the Pixies Surfer Rosa, which is the album everyone thinks Nevermind bit off of
Production? Think what you like, every rock critic in the country disagrees with you. A real independent spirit, huh?
That’s the problem with rock critics. None of them are actually musicians.
There’s a reason Jack Endino produced all of the classic grunge albums. Production is an art in and of itself.
actually origen, the Courtney killed Kurt theory is so prevelant and accepted I don’t even think it’s a conspiracy, though technically it is.
Lets see, there was motive (no money after he divorced her, no fame no riding coatails as Colonel would say) opportunity (Kurt was a junkie) and the ability for her to set up the hit because she had her own cash. Before Kurt she went through Billy Corgan and sorts of rocker dudes because she’s just a bloodsucker and wanted a free ride.
re: 23
“And Jeremy, lets just stop with the conspiracy theories here. Courtney Love may be a bad person, but she was awesome with Hole and Kurt was killed because of his drug use and mental instability and not because of her.”
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh…
First of all, origin, what does Courtney Love’s music career with Hole have anything to do with anything?
Second, read Al’s point in post 22: How did he shoot himself with a fucking long range shot gun? He could have only done it with his fucking toe, but he had his fucking shoes on!
Murder theory? No, murder fact!
I had a girlfriend in 03/04 named Violet Skye who told me she lived with Marilyn Manson when she was a teenage runaway and that Manson said he asked Courtney Love this very question, of how could Kurt kill himself with that long ass gun. She angrily threatened that he’d be next if he brought it up in public.
And IF Cobain injected three times a lethal dose of heroin, COULD he then pick up a shotgun and shoot himself? Wouldn’t he have been immediately incapacitated?
Based on the heroin, morphine, blood levels found in Cobain’s body, preliminary research indicates Kurt Cobain would have been almost immediately incapacitated. He could not have picked up that shotgun. He could not have pulled that trigger!
If Cobain injected himself with a deliberate heroin overdose, why would he ALSO shoot himself in the head with a shotgun, leaving his baby daughter – the love of his life – with horrific visual images to remember him by? Why not just “go to sleep” on the overdose and never wake up?
Hey origin, do the research and THEN form an opinion. Nifty idea, right?
For objectivity, I have seen experts say he could have been such a junkie that that much H might not have phased him. They showed a man with more heroin in his system standing on one foot for like ten seconds straight.
How come Courtney Love didn’t tell the investigator, Tom Grant about the shit above the garage. They were calling his name in the house when he was already dead there.
All the songs on Hole’s first albums are just throwaway songs Kurt wrote, or songs he wrote for them. The played You Know You’re Right at their unplugged and acted like there was already a recorded version Nirvana did and it was their song.
Have to agree with ya, AL. Mudhoney and Mark Arm were the undisputed progenitors of grunge and the “Seattle sound.” Well, you would have to look much further back, to the Sonics (Seattle) and others of the American garage/proto-punk genre, including the Stooges, to locate the seed of what would become known as grunge, which was the very same thing with a different name.
very true, Sonics were big, the Wipers, MC5 also to that sound… They call Neil Young the godfather of grunge, but Iggy should probably have that.
As much as they want to front that their shit was completely influenced by independent shit and punk, they all loved seventies cock rock like Kiss and Aerosmith also. Nirvana recorded a cover of “Do You Love Me”
Ok Al, maybe he shot himself by pulling the trigger with his toe and then put his shoes back on afterwards. Maybe along with the amazingly high tolerance of 3x the lethal limit which he had, all the heroin in his body also allowed him to perform such a miraculous feat such as putting his shoes on after his head has been blown off… Or maybe someone saw his dead body and his blown off head and decided for decorum’s sake to put his shoes on and then quietly leave.
Beam me up, Scotty, there’s no intelligent life on this planet!
I hear you Jeremy, but thats not what I meant. The point is someone could have forced him to take the heroin, and he could have still been able to do shit like forcibly write the note. Although the note itself is one of the biggest pointers to murder. Only the last lines, in different handwriting, have a feeling of suicide. What is most thought of is that he was writing an apology letter to his fans that he didn’t want to be in the music business anymore, and then either someone else wrote the other lines or made him write those lines while he was high.
yeah the suicide part written in a different handwriting, that’s another good point
anyway, i got a cool sounding bootleg of hole where courtney is completely wasted, it rivals jim morrison’s miami concert
no way, not courtney love! get out! she probably doesn’t do dope anymore, she’s flows with the times. It’s all about the Oxy for her now
another thing is that his BFF Dylan Carlson bought him the shotgun because he wanted it for protection I believe…. I think he already owned a number of guns though… but you could say why would you buy your suicidal best friend a means of killing himself? None of this shit adds up to suicide.
well, the shotgun issue makes everything else irrelevant, but just fyi:
the man seen in the film by Broomfield balancing on one leg had SWALLOWED 1000 mgs of METHADONE. He did not INJECT anything, much less heroin, directly into his veins as did Kurt Cobain, or whoever injected him…
Furthermore, the doctor’s comments about the circulation time being 30 seconds to 1 minute were in reference to MORPHINE, not heroin!
Nirvana and Pearl Jam are not grunge. Kurt Cobain did not commit suicide.
So I guess you all know more than any other musical journalist or criminal investigator in the country, huh?
See, Harvey, its like I said– half the people here are egocentric, arrogant pricks.
While Kurt Cobain lies underground because of an allegedly self-inflicted wound he could not possibly have fired by his own hand (maybe his own foot if he were bear foot), because some of us here who are still on the Earth seek and present facts others might not know, we are therefore egocentric and arrogant?
I don’t claim to know more than any criminal investigator. In fact I’m passing on information that Tom Grant, California state licensed private investigator and former detective with the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department has obtained on the case.
And the official “suicide” verdict one was that the police IMMEDIATELY concluded. They DID NOT do ANY investigation.
Tom Grant is a fucking opportunist just like Courtney Love and you are just making him richer.
Ever own a shotgun, Jeremy? Its very possible to fire an upward standing shotgun with your boots on.
Yes it is. Shotgun triggers are very light, and you can use the edge of your shoe to press the trigger.
I used to be interested in the Courtney Love murder angle but them I lost interest as I think that angle unlikey.
Facking suicide is a art that not even the Mob masters! The killers that do that often work for the Goverment. Cops are not stupid and you need a real pro with lots of luck to do that.
I’m a musician, its my personal opinion. I’ve had this conversation with other people before and they have agreed. I believe Nirvana and Pearl Jam are more alternative rock bands than anything. How can Nirvana and Pearl Jam both be the epitome of grunge when those two bands themselves don’t have simliar sounds. Kurt wasn’t a soloist, all his leads were mimicking the riff or were anti solos, dissonant. Pearl Jam had leads that were very Hendrix, theres no Hendrix sound in Nirvana. Ten and Nevermind don’t sound alike at all to me.
It’s not some sort of esoteric opinion at all. I think if you think I’m egocentric for holding it I don’t know what to tell ya… The murder theory is not obscure either. Facts are facts and it doesnt add up to suicide. Nirvana was always my favorite rock band, even to this day, though I played their shit so many times I can’t really listen to it anymore.
Harvey do you think some kid off the street is going to be the chosen hitman for someone of his stature? Obviously a pro carried it out.
A “pro” hitman? Get the fuck outta here. You know how hard it is to hire someone to kill? Only gangs do it easily because of their loyalty insurance against ratting.
And I never said Ten and Nevermind were alike but they are alike enough to be both considered grunge. You think grunge has a limited definition–fine, that’s your business. Its really not worth arguing over, I just got carried away.
I think you are seriously underestimating her ability to make that a reality. She had the money, hung was enough seedy people. She an evil but great networker.
thats fine, I have fun discussing music
Cindi asked me if I wanted to write about Steven Tyler leaving Aerosmith. Is that something you would like to see?
Nah, not really….He’ll be back or Aerosmith will break up ’cause those old fucks aren’t gonna be able to replace his signature sound.
Man, with dealing with circumstantial evidence on both sides (excluding the suicide note) I’m just gonna use Ockham’s razor.
I agree, which is why I didn’t want to. I am genuinely knowledgable about music and I can just stick to that. I never wanted to be the next Luke or Cindi or anything like that at all.
I think this site should have some more non porn topics IMO, because obviously whatever subject thyat is discussed here amongst everyone is in the spirit of Luke and how he did things. I respect that, that’s why I’m here.
“I never wanted to be the next Luke…”
Good. Circumcision and Yeshiva don’t seem like a bright future for ya. 😉
My circumcision in a traditional bris happened in the past… No Yeshiva though. I am an ethnic Jew however, I can give Luke some of my blood.
It’s like Sammy was saying… I got bits and shit, but I think Cindi thinks you guys just want straight porn, porn, porn, porn at LIB. Is that the case?
Yeah, I want more dirty porn gossip 🙂
I didn’t know you were Jewish. If I had to guess I’d say that the Colonel is too, but who knows? Lemme not go there…
at the end of the day its really easy to just skip it if you don’t like it…. I think more content in general can only be a good thing for the site.
My ethnicity is Jewish but my nationality is Mexican, thats my family’s heritage for the last 100 years. I was born in Mexico City.
From what I understand porn has a lot of jewish people in it per capita compared with the general population. I was reading something in the archioves the other day here where Luke asks Al Goldstein if it means something to be a Jew and he said it means jack shit, or something along those lines, a pithy blunt no, and I totally agree with Al
are you in the industry origen?
Fuck! You got me. Yeah, I’m a fucking fanboy scumbag. I’m not in the industry. I do know a lot of sex workers and some porn starlets though.
?
the comments are coming up half at a time my bad…..
what is it you do if you don’t mind me asking
I’m a student at my local community college (I used to go to Case Western Reserve but I fucked up) I work nights at BNY Mellon as a remittance (check) processor. We had Veteran’s Day off. woot.
Got a Paralegal certificate so I’m looking to supplement my income by doing that.
Were you an original employee of BONY or Mellon?
Just to keep this on topic this is a video for the Nirvana song “I Hate Myself And I Want To Die” It was originally on the Beavis and Butthead Experience album from 1993. Whoever made the video juxtaposed it with scenes from Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas and that shit is genuis.
I started when the merger was already in effect but the division was traditionally under Mellon. We still say we work for Mellon.
I used to work for Mellon before the merger.
that song I posted in moderation is definitely a grunge Nirvana song
Yeah? I’m mostly with them because of the great health benefits. Sometimes I just wanna move to Canada.
Check processing…. so I’m guessing you work in Jersey NY or the main one which I think is pittsburgh right?
No, AL. I’m not gonna post where I live ’cause I posted so much info about myself already. Remember, all these comments are indexed with google. Let’s just say I live in the southwest.
fair enough… I liked working for Mellon. It was my first real office job, my own desk, phone all that shit, but they did dick me on money once, kind of. The benefits were really good when I worked there, probably the best of any job I’ve had.
hit us with bonuses to at the end of the year
paralegals can get paid too, that’s a good dynamic you have there law and finance
Oh yeah, the bonsuses are sweet. You’re right. Its not bad working for them.
stock price is way lower than when I worked there… I never contributed to the ESPP
Neither do I. I was first able to apply for benefits in the spring of ’08. I said “No thanks, I watch CNBC.”
you see how that right there had nothing to do with porn but it kept you at LIB?
Yeah, but its because there are no engaging articles about porn that I’m commenting so much. I usually come here to read and rarely comment like 90% of the patrons.
I hear ya
good getting to know a little about you, I’d like to hear others share also just general stuff, same thing
Yeah, I agree. We should tone down the flames and get to know eachother here.
not on a porn thread… see that’s another reason I think non porn related posts come in handy in the abscense of some realtime chat
Ive always believed that
I guess its a good idea.
I, for one, like the non-porn-related threads, Al. Especially enjoy commenting about music, as I’m a longtime musician and also an occassional music reviewer and feature writer for a couple of SoCal magazines (also write on other entertainment and media subjects). The porn threads so often go off-track into other subjects anyway. Makes this site interesting, imo.
I agree…. I’m not the biggest expert on sites of this nature, but from what I know and understand, we got something here that all the others don’t, so why should we tear each other down.
hey rics, have you seen that shotgun? the only way to fit his shoe in it to pull the trigger is if he was wearing pointy toe boots, which he wasn’t
more things to ponder (for now):
courtney has had a history for being extraordinarily violent for many years according to her own dad who also happens to believe she might have something to do with cobain’s death
marks on kurt’s body indicated some kind of struggle before death occurred. the puncture wound left by the needle used to inject the heroin was deep and messy, indicating the needle had been stabbed into the flesh, as if by another person. kurt was about to divorce and leave, write courtney out of it and everything to the daughter, francis
the blast pattern left by the gun shot indicates Kurt was shot while laying down on his back.
also how could (and why would) he put those drug kits neatly into a box few feet away from him after injecting himself with so much dope?
why if he shot himself are there no fingerprints anywhere on the gun? someone must’ve wiped them off, those who killed him, obviously…
Murder or suicide, here is an intriguing fact: Kurt Cobain, Jim Morrison and Jimi Hendrix all died at the age of 27; and true causes of their deaths were never determined.
Conspiracy or fate? You decide. The good thing is I’ve got agent Fox Mulder on the speed dial.
THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE.
“Dead at 27,” as the saying goes, aye Colonel. The great blues legend Robert Johnson also died at that age, and the cause of his death remains unproven, although it’s believed that he was poisoned by a jealous husband.
You forgot Janis Joplin, Brian Jones and Kristen Pfaff, bass guitarist for Hole (who is one of three additional people who died after Kurt Cobain, possibly murdered by or in connection with Courtney Love).
There’s also an extensive list of other lesser known artists who have died at age 27.
Cobain and Hendrix biographer Charles Cross writes, “The number of musicians who died at 27 is truly remarkable by any standard. [Although] humans die regularly at all ages, there is a statistical spike for musicians who die at 27.”
27 is also the age I started performing in porn as “Jeremy Steele”.
From http://futureofmusiccoalition.blogspot.com/2007/09/musicians-face-shorter-life-spans-than.html
“Researchers at the Centre for Public Health at Liverpool John Moores University have found that rock stars are 2 to 3 times as likely to suffer premature death as the general population.”
“The study found musicians were most likely to die in the first five years after achieving fame. Death rates were three times higher than normal during this period. The study also found British artists risk of death remained high until 25 years after they became famous, but, interestingly, American artists chance of death continues to remain high throughout their lives. The lead author of the study said Americans stars continued high rate of death could be because of our country’s penchant for reunion tours (seems dubious) or the fact that many older artists, who are no longer in the spotlight, don’t have health insurance (seems more likely).”
Y wonder about the death rates of Porners too.
Well rics, I found this on the net. Not sure of the veracity of this study but according to Rev. Daniel R. Jennings, M.A.:
“When the deaths of 129 porn stars over a period of roughly 20 years were analyzed it was discovered that porn stars experienced an unusually large number of premature deaths from such causes as drugs, suicide, murder, alcohol abuse, accidental death, and disease. When the death ages of these porn stars were averaged it was discovered that the average life expectancy of a porn star is only 37.43 years whereas the average life expectancy of an American is 78.1 years.”
Also it turns out that the life expectancy of the average rock star (if you average American with European statistics) is about the same as the average porn star :
“Life As A Rock Star Can Kill You
CBS News correspondent Larry Miller reports a new study, which charted the lives of 1,050 American and European music artists between 1965 and 2005, has found they are more than twice as likely to die young than the general population…
One hundred stars died during the study, which showed slightly better life expectancy for rockers in the United States than Europe. The average age of death for Americans was 42, whereas their European cousins only made it to 35, according to the British Broadcasting Corporation.”
More on Courtney Love:
According to her dad:
“Courtney has a dark side, a suppressed and repressed dark side to her personality that is extraordinarily violent. She tried to kill me twice. She’s been extraordinarily violent with her friends, and was kicked out of every band she’s been in for violent outbursts. It’s almost like she has multiple personalities. And one of those personalities is really evil–really, really dark and sinister–more so than you can imagine.”
Cobains TRUE cause of death was a shotgun blast to the head… Jim Morrison TRULEY died of heart failure and Jimi Hendrix TRULEY choked on his own vomit
Courtney’s Dad isn’t the most savory fellow, so while he may say a lot of truth, I think he’s just exploiting shit for his own end,
Brad Nowell was 28 I believe when he died…
Al, if you assume that everyone tesifying about Courtney’s behavior is a liar you might have a legitimate argument. And does Courtney’s dad have a history of being in trouble with the law, psychopathic behavior and in juvi homes like her?
Based on what are you claiming Courtney’s dad is not the most savory fellow?
Meanwhile, was Hole bassist, Kristen Pfaff’s death a suicide or murder?
Just like the Kurt Cobain case Kristen was trying to get away from Courtney and was found dead. The Night before her body was found Kristen had packed her bags ready to leave Seattle and Hole and go back home to Minneapolis. Kristen’s body was found on June 15th 1994 in her bath tub which only had 5 inches of water in, her Body hanging over the edge of the tub as if she was trying to get out. On the floor lied syringes.. Kristen had overdosed on heroin. Kristen was leaving the band because she was deeply upset about Kurt’s Death 2 Months before.
Kristen got on well with Kurt, and Courtney was jealous of her as Kurt had said Kristen was “A beautiful soul”.
The fact that Kristen was so distraught over Kurt’s death may have further confirmed Courtney’s suspicion that she was “the other woman”!
Kurt has said he wished he could tell Courtney what he thinks of Kristen but Courtney would freak. Kristen had said Courtney “Belittles her ” as did Kurt. It is a well known fact that Courtney hated Kristen and was jealous of everything she did.
Kristen had told her mom that Courtney had said “Don’t you tell me how to sing !, First you fuck my Guitarist , then you constantly make eyes at my husband. Just don’t fuck with me or you’ll regret it forever!!”
It is also a well known fact that neither Courtney or any of the other band mates were bothered she was dead other than the fact they were pissed off because they had to find another bassist right in the middle of their tour.
And just as in Kurt’s case no fingerprints of hers were found on the syringe. No prints, yet again…
Also in both Kurt and Kristen’s cases, the last people seen with them while still alive were friends of Courtney’s.
Another case of C killing K?
He’s still her father, the only male genetic contribution she’ll ever have. Does he have to so zealously try to make money off her, regardless of her behavior?
Al, why does someone’s attempt to publicize what they believe to be true mean they’re only doing it for the money?
So this answers my question of how you think he’s unsavory.
To me it says how fucked up Courtney is that her own father (who seems sane to me) says she had a hand in it.
Btw, minor correction: one Hole band member, Patty Schemel, DID express remorse over Kristen’s death.
Kristen also is quoted as having said “Courtney’s scary. If I take a hike, she’ll make me look bad or do something to make my life miserable.”
So the you think she gets it from her mama then?
You can’t blame a person’s insanity on their parents, oherwise every psychokiller’s parents would be locked up as well, but to answer your question, I DO think she gets it more from her mamma:
From wikipedia:
Love’s mother Linda Carroll was adopted by an Italian-American couple at birth, retaining no contact with her birth father or her birth mother.
During a child custody case following her parents’ divorce, her mother and one of her friends presented letters implying her father had given the child, then three years old, LSD. Harrison denies this allegation and has passed polygraph tests; however, these allegations led to full custody being awarded to Love’s mother.
Love spent a troubled childhood with her mother, who married and divorced three times, and settled in hippie communes in Oregon.
Before arriving in New Zealand, Love had been left in the United States with Shirley, a friend of her mother’s, a therapist, while her mother, the new husband and her half-sisters settled in New Zealand without her. Shortly after reuniting with her family in New Zealand, Love was sent to the boarding school in Nelson.
I’ve been a music fan all of my life. I play guitar; some years ago me and some friends used to jam every few weeks and play some songs we wrote in addition to covering some of our favorite rock and metal songs. We recorded some demos, too, but were so busy with life and all that we never made any attempt to releasing anything. We still jam every now and then, though not as often as we used to.
Consequently, life and death of musicians has always been an intriguing subject for me. We know, or at least we think we know how they died: murder, suicide, drug overdose, etc. But we don’t know why they died. In regards to every musician’s untimely death from Kurt Cobain to Jim Morrison, Jimi Hendrix, Elvis Presley, John Lennon, etc. there are as many official explainations as there are conspiracy theories from plausible to bizarre to outright crazy. I’m well familiar with this subject and all different aspects of it, so I might write an article and discuss it further. Kudos to our friend Jeremy Steele for bringing up this subject by discussing the death of Kurt Cobain.