Former Porn Actress Speaks Out Against Porn Following Cock Fighting Issue
Former porn actress, Shelley Lubben, spoke out about the illegal and unsafe work conditions in the California porn industry to Los Angeles City Public Safety Committee following the cock fighting issue.
Apparently Shelley went on the right day.
“I am a former porn actress and survivor of the porn industry where I caught Genital Herpes, a non-curable disease, HPV and I developed early cervical cancer and had half of my cervix removed. I am not alone. 70% of sexually transmitted infections occur in females. Women are lured in, coerced and forced to do sex acts they never agreed to. It is illegal for bodily fluids to touch skin and yet it happens every day in the porn industry. Los Angeles Public health and Cal Osha aren’t enforcing the laws and are unconcerned with safety and health of adult film industry workers.The porn industry is modern day slavery and California needs to do something about it.”
According to figures cited by Los Angeles County Department of Public Health, there were 2,013 documented cases of Chlamydia among porn performers between 2003 and 2007. In the same period, 965 cases of gonorrhea were documented. Many performers suffer multiple infections. In the period April 2004 to March 2008 there have been 2,847 STD infections diagnosed among 1,884 performers in the hardcore industry in LA County. As recent as June, 2009, a porn actress tested positive for HIV. LA Public Health attributes the epidemic of sexually transmitted diseases in the porn industry to a lack of protective equipment for partners, including condoms.
When asked if Shelley wants to ban porn by Councilman Dennis Zine, Shelley replied, “If the illegally operating porn industry can operate legally and follow the same laws as any other business in California then I’ll leave them alone. But I know the porn industry can’t operate legally. The basis for their business is illegal activities such as prostitution, forcing workers to do hardcore sex acts without following workplace laws and offering drugs and alcohol to help workers get through hardcore scenes. The California porn industry is an illegal and disease infested industry and California needs to do something about it now!”
Shelley requested a special hearing to present evidence of abuse in the porn industry as well as other former porn actresses who want to testify.
During the hearing Shelley was disgusted to listen to the issue of cock fighting because it seemed roosters receive more attention from Los Angeles than adult film workers who risk their lives daily while California makes millions off of them.
Shelley replied, “If the illegally operating porn industry can operate legally and follow the same laws as any other business in California then I’ll leave them alone. But I know the porn industry can’t operate legally. The basis for their business is illegal activities such as prostitution, forcing workers to do hardcore sex acts without following workplace laws and offering drugs and alcohol to help workers get through hardcore scenes.”
At least she’s being 110% honest and upfront about her ultimate goal to bring about the end of Porn Valley. She’s not lying about her intentions, she’s not hiding behind vague slogans that one might think support a ‘safe’ porn industry. Those words quoted right there should put EVERYONE who makes a living from the U.S. Porn Industry on notice from this day forward.
Ms. Lubben has NO INTENTION whatsoever to make porn ‘safe’ and/or to help any one in the industry live a productive life outside of pornography. She wants it gone from the face of the earth — and she’s just exposed how she’ll do it (using the courts to reexamine the ‘basis’ for the industry’s very existence…using that argument against said industry on the basis that they can’t operate legally, because to do so would mean the Federal Government legally recognizes ‘prostitution’ and ‘drug use’ in the workplace).
Suffice it to say, I doubt that either the California State Legislature, or the Supreme Court, will decide to rule that henceforth, prostitution is legally protected by the Constitution and/or that hardcore drugs in the workplace is protected by the Bill Of Rights.
Porn Valley better get their shit together, stop the petty feuds, and unite behind some major legal firepower…
Yep, they better get their shit together because I’m not messing around.
By the way it’s complete nonsense when you say I have no intention to help anyone in the industry live a productive life. We have helped over 100 women AND men in the sex industry and over 40 of them performed in porn. http://www.thepinkcross.org to read about some of these amazing men and women. Powerful men and women who have the courage to do something better with their lives.
You are ALL made for greater things than porn!
Regardless of your religious zeal, it’s quite obvious you DON’T intend to help anyone in the sex industry (and more to the point, the Adult Entertainment Industry) live a productive life…because you are adamant that they do so by destroying Pornography.
The fact of the matter is, you’re like most all Conservatives. You espouse ‘freedom and liberty’ but at the end of the day, it’s on YOUR TERMS ONLY. You seek to limit ‘personal freedoms’ in order to install your way of life (which is a zero sum game). Personally speaking, we all should be allowed to practice whatever religion we want, live life anyway we want (as long as we’re not purposely hurting others).
Likewise, last I checked our Bill of Rights, Constitution and Declaration of Independence, grants us all the ability to seek the ‘pursuit of happiness’ (however broadly that is defined, however personal that is defined).
Yet Conservatives, and particularly religious conservatives, seek the opposite. They want everyone to be a ‘Christian’. They want everyone to ‘prescribe’ to their ‘worldview’ (which again, is filled with religion…and not ALL religions, but ONE religion — Judo-Christianity). It is a very limited way to see the world and ultimately, one that is infinitely more destructive than helpful due to it’s stubborn dogma and unwillingness to credit the other side as being just as ‘blessed’ by a higher power as Christianity is.
I spoke with Shelley a few times during this year’s AEE and here are a few observations posted on Darrah’s website before it went down today:
1) She believes what she says and believes in what she is doing. This gives her the courage of her convictions.
2) She spoke without hesitation about some of the issues that arose and in a convincing manner. Personally, I give her less credibility than most outsiders would regarding her short stay in porn (I think the industry is far more diverse than her range of experiences allows for) and she is no more a “porn star” than Darrah is, but having made a few flicks gives her that “I was there” angle. Her credibility derives from something else IMHO, the desire of Cal-OSHA to use whatever means necessary to divide and conquer.
3) Her followers at the show were also believers, able to withstand the scrutiny of someone willing to look them in the eye and ask questions. Some were better prepared than others but they were among the most pleasant people there that were fully clothed.
4) Much of what she advocates is actually reasonable, measures to protect contractors and hold companies to the letter of the law even when it is inconvenient. She is also correct when she says that most people in the industry are selling themselves short and don’t truly belong there.
5) She’s religious which means she is easy to dismiss for a lot of porners but frankly, for all the talk about superstitious twaddle, a great many people in the industry still believe on some level in a god or higher power (I’m not one of them). Most people are raised with these beliefs and they are ingrained deep down so even those that openly rebel come back to it when something goes wrong.
6) To insiders, she comes across as an outside meddler; she gets no free pass because of her limited experience. To outsiders, she has the knowledge of what really goes on because they think of the industry in monolithic terms.
7) She was not the impetus for this latest round of discussions by either the “Hirsch Conspirators” or the “County Mounties” so all this talk about her gaining ground is actually other people with more stroke doing so. She is still a sideshow to the affair no matter how much a handful of people want you to believe otherwise.
8) As froggie says, attacking the person and not the argument is a failing for many of us on these largely anonymous boards. It generally doesn’t help sway opinions worthy of swaying (of people that will act upon the information) and while there are NO “porn spokesmen” out there that speak for more than a small part of the industry, there is no shortage of people speaking out against the industry at any given time. It would pay for people to remember that because truth be told, porn has always been a refuge of last resort for the kind of people most of society really doesn’t care for. Once you’re considered “in”, you are always “in” and labeled as such; the consequences far reaching despite what your agent, publicist, fuck buddies, and newfound “friends” will tell you.
In relation to her charges above, I would point out that ALL career paths carry inherent risks. Getting an HPV vaccine and learning when to say “no” covering much of what she fusses about. Regardless of her stances, there are reasons why companies pay untrained performers thousands of dollars for an hour or so worth of work and as long as the clap & other low grade diseases are curable with a shot or short term series of antibiotics, most people are not going to worry about them too much.
To put her statistics in perspective though, she uses a four year spread each time. In those four years (either 2003 to 2007 or 2004 to 2008), how many tens of thousands of scenes were shot for websites and movies? How many of those STD cases were proven to be caught on set and not when they were doing escorting or with some fuck buddy they picked up for the night?
In terms of the abuses though, very few cases of documented abuse have occurred which is why things like the Tanner/JM Productions event got so much attention. If we searched police records in Los Angeles for rapes occurring in churches, in businesses, or at restaurants, I’m sure we’d see the need for regulating them out of business too (again, just for comparison purposes).
Regarding the animal rights versus performer rights issue, keep in mind that animals do not have a choice whether to fight or not. They fight or they die so the tree hugging liberals out of the People’s Republic of California fret about them. Performers, on the other hand, often make sizable sums of cash and other income (not all of it reported by the way) as a result of their personal CHOICE to be in porn.
I wholeheartedly agree that for most people, it is not the place for them to be but a crusade based more on the premise of sour grapes and removing those choices from others than genuine concern for the welfare of others is pretty lame. By all means go ahead and inform ill trained, under employable youth that making six figures is not the perfect life for them but don’t be surprised when you find that the dream they are routinely sold is much more than they ever had access to in their mundane lives..
“Those words quoted right there should put EVERYONE who makes a living from the U.S. Porn Industry on notice from this day forward.”
Sammy, Lubben is certainly not the first, nor will she be the last, anti-porn crusader to come marching down the glory road. Jerry Falwell spouted the same vitriol back during the Reagan administration, and he had far more influence and power among the religious right and with a highly conservative political party in the White House, Congress, and the federal and state courts. They didn’t kill us then, and a small fry like Lubben and her little PCF—even bulked up by Weinstein and the AHF—won’t kill us now. Relax.
Houston,’
Excelllent response.
I would like to make one observation, regarding the ‘tens of thousands’ of scenes performed in the time period Shelley references.
While it is true that ‘tens of thousands’ of scenes have been performed, the fact is that all of those scenes were done by about 6 to 8 thousand individual performers. And when you look at the number of individual performers who have tested positive for std’s in that time period you can see that the percentage of performers who get infected is quite high.(and that is just gonn and chalm, not to mention the myriad of other std’s that are not even tracked by AIM.) Does anyone wonder why AIM will only say that the county numberss are wrong, but they will not say what the correct numbers are, according to them. WOudnt this information be usefull to performers, or new performers, who want to make an informed decision. The REAL wquestion is not how many performers every month are tested, the real question is how many total performers are tested in a year, and what percentage of the total performers get std’s. Why doesnt AIM put these numbers out there, what are they hiding? They are hiding the truth, and as we all know, that is exactly what the porn industry is afraid of.
The FACT that the industry cannot deny is that performers who have these diseases are being hired on a regular basis and spreding these diseases in the workplace. For the industry to attempt to deny this is like the tobacco executives testifying before congress that they didnt know their product caused illlness or was addictive. It just simply doesnt pass the laugh tests.
As far as personal ‘choice’….If you choose to produce porn, and hire people to perform acts with inherent risks, from which you intend to profit, then you share the responsibility of those inherent risks which YOUR EMPLOYEES are taking. This is not a matter of privacy, this isnt two people in a private setting, it is a workplace, which is subject to workplace rules and regulations.
Regarding the proving the infections happened on set, the standard of proof is very low, and always in favor of the employee. The Brooke Ashley case is a perfect example that I have cited here numerous times. NOT ONE SINGLE BIT OF EVIDENCE that any other performer on that set had HIV was ever presented. No test results were submitted,,no testimony given NOTHING. That was the basis of the appeal to the Supreme Court of california, which of course was dinied and the employer found liable. Any injury that can reasonably be shown to have probably occured in the workplace will fall on the side of the employee. Carpal Tunnel Syndorme is a classic example…..I type at work all day and got carpal tunne, but I also type and home, and do knitting and crocheting, any a host of other things that could cause carpal tunnel, but my worikers omp, or SDI is going to pay regardless of my at home activity.
Direct qestion for Ernest Greene, How many total individual performers has AIM tested in the last one, two,r four years(whichever you choose) and in that same time period, how many of those individuals have ever contracted and std? This information would be very useful for performers to be able to asses the risk for themselves, but the reason we wont get an answer is because it would aslo let the county and everyone else see exactly what percentage of performers are actually getting std’s, and we all know the industry cant have that.
And Shelley, NO ONE in the adult industry is FORCED to do ANYTHING. To equate this industry – a tax paying, self-regulated, fully invested (numerous Fortune 500 companies are either directly or indirectly involved in aspects of the business), and long-running American enterprise – with “slavery” is flatly absurd, and you know it. You are a liar. Pray for your own forgiveness, to the god you choose. It’s not mine.
It’ll be a cold day in your “hell”—another fable land in which I don’t believe—when I’m worried about someone like you.
Third, agreed.
General, thanks. One of my issues with AIM continually suggesting that they are working primarily for the welfare of the performers is their lack of providing such information. Given my past employment in the health care field, I would also suggest that while the minor STDs are not usually so bad, the cumulative effect of repeatedly catching and treating them can be catastrophic for some people (also making people more susceptible to a host of other maladies in the process). I’d suggest that a smaller number of folks are getting the STDs at a faster rate than the infection rate be spread around because of this…
That said, one of the reasons why Tort reform got so much mileage around the country was because of rulings like you mention in the People’s Republic of California that lower the standard of proof like that. If a jury in most places around the country were to decide on the issue, someone hooking while shooting up on horse repeatedly over a period of months and not tending their health needs might be questioned as to where they acquired a disease like AIDS when no one else on a set had it. As the extremely popular and common saying goes…”only in California…”
the little general says:
“While it is true that ‘tens of thousands’ of scenes have been performed, the fact is that all of those scenes were done by about 6 to 8 thousand individual performers.”
To state that this is a “fact” is utter bullshit. You have absolutely no credible basis for this figure, because such numbers are not available ANYWHERE. Only individual companies keep individual performer records, and those aren’t given to anybody but the feds, should they request such under 2257 regs. Since companies come and go with regularity in this business, and performers do too, such figures would be even less accurate if they even were available. And please don’t say that you got them from AIM, because it doesn’t give out such figures either, nor is it or has it been the sole testing entity that would maintain such stats, once again making your “6000-8000 performers” figure complete nonsense. Your entire argument falls apart right there, as well as the rest of it, which I’ve rebutted already. Stay down, little guy, because you just keep getting hurt.
Again, g-monkey, you make this shit up to support more of your shit. You’re so deep in it that your little snout is almost buried. You have been discredited over and over here, and you know it. Official title: Government Idiot.
Third Axis — yes, there have been previous ‘anti-porn’ crusaders during times when the political winds were in their favor.
Yet you’re missing the larger point — Ms. Lubben could very well succeed because she’s not on the ‘national scene’ (and in a more insidious fashion, going after the low-hanging fruit first).
She’s not calling for national boycotts of Playboy from 7-11 or holding rallies on the National Mall. Instead, she’s working on the local level to effect the kind of sweeping changes she wants to see happen. Which I have to say is smart, considering that she’d otherwise drowned out in the media (as there’s a lot of other stories, far more interesting, for them to cover…and as you point out, we’ve seen this story before).
Thusly, minus another huge HIV outbreak, the media would see Lubben’s activities as ‘same song, different verse’ and move on to something trite and dumb such as Why Is Obama Using the Race Card, or Can Ellen Follow Paula On American Idol. Ms. Lubben tactic is one of going after the last place anyone would really think to try and challenge pornography; the workplace.
Instead of making quasi-moral/religious arguments (which forces the Left, and some on the Right, to defend porn under the 1st Amendment), she’s not questioning anyone’s right to ‘artistic expression’ — rather, she’s making the state admit the act of shooting porn is wholly unsafe (so it should be banned outright). Similarly, you could draw comparisons to how early strides in civil right laws (children, women, minorities) were first made when industries such as textiles, farming, or manufacturing were forced to have set hours or give regular time off. Or how labor laws were advanced via Kurt Flood’s problems as a MLB free agent.
Ms. Lubben is going to force the Porn Industry into a ‘checkmate’ moment, via making OSHA or another state regulatory agency nullify the Freeman decision with the argument that while porn is 110% LEGAL to make…it’s not 110% SAFE to make, so it should be banned until it CAN be made safe (which at the rate things are going in Porn Valley, will be a minus zero degree day across the Southland).
Ms. Lubben doesn’t need to become a ‘national spokesperson’ for those who wish to see Porn abolished. All she needs to do to achieve even a tenth of her goals, however misguided, is to make it illegal to make porn in California. Once she’s done that, it’s a safe bet that either herself, or others, will continue her efforts in the other 49 states in the union.
It’s rather devious I have to say — and similar to how anti-abortion foes focus more of their energies on the state level, than the national level (as they know that Roe v. Wade will NEVER be overturned no matter what ‘national leaders’ promise them…but they can make it extremely difficult for someone in Alabama, Ohio, Colorado, Maine, et cetera to get an abortion if they manage to get those state legislatures to curb the ability for a woman to chose). In making it hard for citizens of a state to get safe and legal abortions, they don’t need to overturn any national laws about abortion.
If that’s to complex for you, consider how in the 1930s/40s (I might be off a decade or so), the US Government made it perfectly legal to farm marijuana. Only on the condition you had a special license from the US Government. The catch was that there were a limited number of licenses…to obtain one, you had to prove you were a marijuana farmer (at which point, you’d be arrested for farming marijuana without a license).
Houstondon, I respect and thank you for your well-reasoned input here on LIB. If I sound contemptuous in my remarks toward the little general, that’s because I have nothing but contempt for people like him – those who gloat over every issue, make up stats to support their bias, misquote others who deny their lies, and make hypocritical remarks about their own righteousness and ethical discourse. He’s a pompous, dishonest, dishonorable, regulation-loving idiot, and I’ll continue to refer to him as such.
“If that’s to complex for you…”?
Seriously, glick, don’t get all more-intellectual-than-thou here. Your points, while somewhat valid, are not evidence of some scholarly mind. In my opinion, Lubben’s little grassroots movement has about as much weight as your marijuana-law comparison. Don’t forget the amount of money that the porn industry pours into the state economy, on every level right down to the local service industry. Money talks louder than anything in this capitalist society of ours, particularly here in good ol’ broke-ass CA – but that may be too complex for you, my friend.
Incidentally, the existing marijuana laws were brought about by the boardroom strong-arming of William Randolph Hearst and others heavily invested in DuPont, which saw hemp’s direct competition against the plastics and paper industry. Again, money trumps.
Tird,
I would suggest you do some research on statements made by Sharon Mitchell herself regarding the number of people tested.
And thatk you for admitting that not everyone in the industry tests at AIM, therefore there willbe MORE infected performers than just those reported by AIM.
ANd Sammy, while you may describe Shellye’s actions as ‘devious,’ they certainly are proving to be quite ‘effective.’ And if they’re not effective, why the need for secret meetings?
And Tirds use of the words dishonest and dishonorabele are laughable. What words would you use to describe the ‘adult industry Tirdboy?
Tirdboy, why do you think AIM refuses to release the real numbers, if indeed the couty’s numbers are as wrong as they claim? You would have to agree that the “REAL” numbers from AIM would help the performers make informed decisions about their own helath and safety risks wouldnt you. Shouldnt the performers be given the information to make an informed ‘choice?” Oh wait, that would mean the industry has to tell the truth, and we all know that aint going to happen. Why do they hide these numbers Tirdboy?
You don’t deserve to use the word, “truth.”
BTW, how does that little fez fit these days?
http://adultfyi.com/read.php?ID=37313
WOW, you mean to tell us that not everybody, even established performers follow the ‘required’ testing in the adult biz? Say it isnt so tirdboy. Just a little more ammo for Shelley to give to the county supervisors about this ‘SELF REGULATING’ industry(lol)
You guys are making this way to easy for Shelly and the AHF.
Just alittle more ammo, along with tirdboy telling us that not everyone tests at AIM. I’m sending a copy of this article and thread to Coucilman Yaroslasky(or however you spell it) right now. Thanks tirdboy. ANything else you would like to tell us about the =great ‘self policing’ adult industry?
Oh that’s right — no wonder the state just sat idly by while Hollywood writers went on strike for several months…while actors went on strike for close to a year (they didn’t actually strike, instead, they just threatened to…which led to the studios not greenlighting any major movies for about a year and thus, a defacto strike happened). California might have looking at the start of a giant financial abyss a year and a half ago, but why would they try and prevent Hollywood from going on strike for anymore than a fucking day…
Oh yes, Porn just fills the state’s coffers to the point they’re overfucking flowing with cash! All of those multi-million dollar porn productions and the smaller $100K and up shoots. Employing tens of hundreds to several thousands of people who use ancillary services like catering, car washing, dry cleaning, hair & nail salons, restaurants, florists, dog walkers, babysitters, tailors, et cetera.
Please tell us all how your last shoot used a caterer for the huge crew. Please do tell us how your last shoot needed a florist to give the lead actors a nice little welcome to the set, or how they used a well-paid hair and make up person, or that inbetween takes they had their car washed and they ate at a local restaurant and picked up their clothes from the dry cleaners. Please tell us the multiple locations used on your last shoot — necessitating the use of a few trailers for the actors. Can’t forgot about all of those transportation costs moving heavy lighting equipment/sets and actors between their trailers and the multiple soundstages/sets being used…
Please tell us about the vocal, singing, acting coaches employed on your last porn shoot. Maybe the last MILF movie you were involved in, there was a tutor on set for the lead actress’ kid, or the last ‘teen movie’ you were involved in there was a tutor on set to make sure they’re able to graduate from high school with the rest of their class…
Have fun spinning your ‘porn saved California’s ailing economy’ when Lubben’s efforts start to change a few minds in Sacramento.
And to be “accurate,” dumbass, you need to gather statistical data from more than one source – AIM. The industry never appointed Ms. Mitchell to be its official record keeper or spokesperson. Your grasp of statistical theory is laughable too. Broader data won’t support the exact same statistical outcome over a larger population. Maybe you and Sophia/Jade can ride-share to the nearest Learning Annex.
Excellent reply TIRDBOY, I wouldnt have expected anything less. Of course nobody in the adult industry is going to tell the truth about the std’s. the truth is the one thing the industry fears more than anything.
I dont deserve to use the word truth, but the adult biz does? Give us a break tridboy. It is the adult industry, AIM to be exact, that refuses to give the true numbers, if indeed the county’s numbers are wrong.
Tirdboy, why wont AIM tell the truth about the number of individual performers? The adult industry is so afraid of the truth they wont even tell us how many performers are being tested at their self regulating, self policing health(lol) clinic. Why are they hiding this truth tirdboy?
Boy, glick, you sure know how to spin it: “‘porn saved California’s ailing economy’”
Never said it, and never implied it. Just said the industry contributes significently. If you put just the big companies in the equation – Vivid, Hustler, Wicked, and maybe a couple of others – I’d estimate their combined state tax contribution alone would be well in the millions. I’d certainly term that significant.
Hollywood writers, SAG, etc. are all trade unions. Nothing the state could do about that, smart guy.
Nice long rant though.
Tird, what other source for data regarding std’s in porn is there?
Everyone want to hide behind the ‘self rigulating’ bullshit lie, but when you ask those who do the actaul regulating for the biz, the place that actually does the tests, they wont give the performers true information about the true percentage of performers who get std’s.
TIRDBOY, where else is this information available, from what other source, since you say there has to be more than one source?
Sorry, can’t answer that, g-monkey. I don’t administrate, or work for, AIM. Your guess is as good as mine, but it’s still just a guess on your part.
And the industry never appointed Mitch the official record keeper? You got to be kidding. Isnt it the AIM database that everyone checks to see if people have been tested. But AIM isnt the official record keeper? You are, without a doubt, the biggest TIRD here. What next, Lara roxx infected darren James?
Who else keeps these records except AIM, tirdboy?
The individual companies only keep copies of AIM’s test reuslts. So, who else keeps any of these records Tird?
How many employees are working in the US farming industry? Or even just within the state? Are they all being covered, as by law? How many are even working legally?
Who gathers and maintains these “accurate” statistics? Why aren’t these numbers readily available, and what is the state trying to hide?
Let’s outlaw the California farming industry, because there are gross abuses to workers rights and safety taking place every single day. Lubben equates the porn industry with “slavery.” Let her live under a tarp in a dry canyon in the southern California chaparral, and go to work 6 days a week in the blistering sun, for often less than the legal minimum wage – then she’ll have an understanding of just what modern-day “slavery” is.
She’s completely missing the true crusade. But porn makes better headlines in California Norte than does migrant farm workers.
Tird,
Thank you for making my point. Not only is it your guess and my guess, it is also a ‘guess’ for the performers. Now AIM does say they test about 1200 performers a month, but how many are newbies and how many are repeaters form previous months.
Too bad this industry leaves the employees with nothing but a ‘guess’, as Tird puts it, when making decisions regarding their health and sagety.
Should the performers be given the facts, or just left to ‘guess’ about the std rate in the industry?
Tird, your argument that the illegal activities of the porn industry should be tolerated because other industry’s also violate the law is quite funny. Using your logic, there should be no regulation of any kind whatsoever for any industry.
Saying everyone else does it is not a defense, it is an admission of guilt.
Everyone ignores the speed limit. Should we abolish the speed limit. But when I get pulled over, out of the thousands of cars on the road that day, I am guilty. I dont get off by saying ‘everybody else was doing it.” If i say that in court, the judge takes that as an admission of guilt.
Direct question TIRD,
Should performers be given the facts, or just left to guess?
Under 2257 regs, producers are required to keep proper ID records, not just medical test verification, of every performer that has worked for them for a period of five years after the dissolution of any business for which the content may be used.
Again, AIM has not been the sole CA testing entity, and its database only covers individuals that it has tested.
Just like almost everything in the porn industry, where there is no centralized structure but rather a loose group of large to small to individual content producers, getting “accurate” information is impossible. Regulating it will be a very interesting, and costly, adventure.
Tird,
You are 100% WRONG. 2257 regulations have NOTHING to do with medical records. As a matter of FACT, it is ILLEGAL to ‘require’ an HIV test as condition of employment in calfornia.
true, AIM is not the only testing center, which is why the number of positive performers reported by the county, which only cites AIM statistics, would actually be HIGHER than what they have previously reported.
You are wrong about the 2257 and medical records.
Are these companies keeping these records in compliance with HIPPA standards?
AT the meeting in 2004 at the Hustler studios, one of the lawyers there was appalled when a producer told him they are keeping copis of medical records. He suggested that they “Get rid” of any medical records in their files. By keeping the records the companies are ADMITTING they are aware of the risk.
I’m “admitting” nothing, g-monkey. Again, that’s your stretch of words. Virtually EVERY industry disregards some laws or regulations it deems counter to maximum production. Get a clue. You see time after time major American companies receiving fines—or simply slaps on the wrist—for violations. Hell, AIG and rest of the financial carpetbaggers got a fat bailout bonus, without any accountability! Does this make it OK to “bend” the law? No, but it’s the way that business is done in the USA. Not even our military, or government, is above such conduct. To single out a relatively minor industry for scrutiny is absurd, and it’s only due to the fact that it deals in SEX and not junk bonds, or steel, or lettuce, or some other commodity.
Even the LACDPH deemed porn workers to be too small a percentage of the overall population to spend the money or resources to regulate. That should tell you, Shelley, Weinstein, and rest of the booty avengers something.
Yes, I know that 2257 only requires personal ID. My sentence construction inadvertently placed the two together. Medical testing is in no way legally required—and would be legally challenged by the ACLU and everyone else if it was attempted—and is part of our industry regulating itself, like it should and as it should remain. Is that clear enough?
To be continued…
g-monkey sez:
“Thank you for making my point. Not only is it your guess and my guess…”
Wait a minute there, furry little guy, didn’t you fire off this thread by stating:
“While it is true that ‘tens of thousands’ of scenes have been performed, the fact is that all of those scenes were done by about 6 to 8 thousand individual performers.”
Hmmm… there’s that pesky phrase again you like to throw around so often, “the fact is…” Then you backpedal and admit now to “guessing” about your touted numbers (like your 2000 figure that Ernest Greene scoffed at). You’re not even sure what your own “point” is anymore. Don’t be confused, it’s on the top of your little head, under the fez. Now beat that tiny drum some more for me.
I’m just a guy with a camera and a checkbook, and certainly no authority on the industry’s alleged—by you—secrets. I could care less. Please send this link to everyone you know, whether you can spell their name or not. Send it to the ‘Christian Science Monitor’. Send it to Kermit the Frog. Send it to your organ grinder. Send it sealed with a kiss.
Tird,
Your insinutation that the porn industry is the only industry to be singled out for these types of violatiions is just patenetly absurd.
ANd Ernie Greene can scoff at anything he likes, you will notice that he will NEVER give the simple information asked for, nor will AIM ever give this information to the performers, or the county for that matter.
tird, you spoke about the porn woirkers beitn “too small a percentage”…….Then why wont Ernie, or AIM tell us the REAL numbers…..How many total indivduals tested, and how many of them have gotten std’s during their porn career. As far as my 6 to 8 thousand perforomers, I stick by that number, perhaps Ernie could give his number.
Tird, why wont the ‘industry'(lol), or AIM, give the performers the facts they need to make informed CHOICES, it is all personal choice right? You can make light of this all you like TIRDBOY, but Ernest, and Mitch know that this is the question they have been dreading for years, and they will stonewall answering it for as long as they can. But wait until the next county meeting, or state assembly meeting that Mitch or Ernie testify at. Wait till you see their reaction to the question I have been asking. And wait till you see the reaction of state health officials when they get that answer.
So again, question for ERNIE,
How many individual performers has AIM tested in the last two, three or four years, and what percentage of those individuals has gotten std’s while working in the biz? Please stop hiding this information from the performers,(and the county) they deserve to know.(they really dont care if the performers know, its the county theyre afraid of)
the general Says:
http://adultfyi.com/read.php?ID=37313
“WOW, you mean to tell us that not everybody, even established performers follow the ‘required’ testing in the adult biz? Say it isnt so tirdboy. Just a little more ammo for Shelley to give to the county supervisors about this ‘SELF REGULATING’ industry(lol)
You guys are making this way to easy for Shelly and the AHF.
“Just alittle more ammo, along with tirdboy telling us that not everyone tests at AIM. I’m sending a copy of this article and thread to Coucilman Yaroslasky(or however you spell it) right now. Thanks tirdboy. ANything else you would like to tell us about the =great ’self policing’ adult industry?”
Sorry, I had to re-comment this, just because it’s so silly. First off, general malfunction, it’s a single individual who is “alleged” to have “faked” his tests. This information is unconfirmed, so don’t go gettin’ your panties all wet. This “ammo” sure isn’t going to rocket Lubben and the AHF to the feet of State Supreme Court, or wherever they’re aiming, anyway. Reality check, general disarray.
Remember that testing is VOLUNTARY and not “required”; therefore, there is no 100-percent certitude that everyone will follow the “rules,” because they don’t exist as such. Self-regulation, just like official regulation, comes with an expected degree of abuse by those who don’t play by the “rules.” This is simply a given, and you only need to look at every other industry in America to see that. Hospitals and private doctors break the “rules” constantly, and lives are actually lost because of it; however, such abuses don’t shut down the medical profession, do they?
I sincerely love it when you proffer these “read ’em and weep” tidbits. Keep ’em comin’, and by all means send them to your Cal-OSHA cronies, your council members, the Pope, and whoever else needs yet more useless drivel in their inboxes.
Tird, if the industry regulates itself, then please tell me who does this regulating, and what are the consequences for not followiing the ‘industry standards.’
WHo decides what these self imposed standards are?
Has anyone ever been sactioned in any way for not following these self imposed standards? (NO)
Where can I get a list of the rules that the self regulating porn industry follows?
SARCASM ALERT
Oh wait, it is the honest, honorable, and trustworthy, porn directors, producers and agents who enforce these regulations. How could anyone ever question this honorable group of people, these protectors of free speech and artistic expression. Shame on anyone who thinks that these honorable people dont put the health and well being of their employees as priority number one. How dare anybody question their commitment to protecting the rights of their workers.
I stand corrected, the AdultFYI report is a follow-up to the same story posted here on LIB earlier, which is what I was commenting on. Pumper is an idiot, and it’s these very kinds of abuses that make internal industry vigilance to crucial. Evil Angel detected the error early, dealt with the offender, and made an honest public statement with the facts. There’s industry self-regulation in action.
Nobody cares about this woman and her herpes except for Michael Weinstein and the general. Kudos to her for being honest though as was mentioned right off by sammyglick. The more honest Lubben is about her true intentions the more ground she loses. All the STDS in the world aren’t as bad as allowing this egotistical woman to decide for everybody.
Evil ANgel put out a press release that said NOTHING about the testing lapses. Only AFTER it was mentioned in the ‘adult press’ did they put out a second statemnet that indicated that this was a MORE than one time problem. Tird, your statement that the problem was detected early is in direct contrast to the statement released by Evil Angel. The statement indicates numerous violations of their poicy.
And if evel angle was so strict about testing procedures why was it not discovered until months AFTER when an office worker noticed that the “dates didnt match”
And were the other performers notified that they were working with someone who wanst tested? Did Brian notify his partners the day after he worked with the untested people as to what he had done the previous day?
How vigilant is a system that lets someone get away with this numerous times before getting rid of him, and only after ‘word started to spread’ about what he was doing?
How long before Brian is back at work?
A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF THE FAILURE OF THE SELF REGULATION.
TIRD, would you describe Evil Angels FIRST public statement as “honest, with the facts,” or was is when they got called on their BULLSHIT that they finally caved and told the truth?
Kind of like AIM not telling the industry ov HIV positive workers until they got called on their bullshit by the gossip mongers.
INTERNAL INDUSTRY VIGILANCE….that is laughable. Like working with untested trannies in Brazil, and not testing for gonn and chal in the throat or anus.
There are dishonest, dishonorable, and untrustworthy individuals in every industry, general do-right. Even within OSHA, I’ll wager. Your questions above are ludicrous, since you know that self-regulation is just that – “self”-regulation – instituted independently by each company and each performer. There is no gatekeeper. The accepted testing standards evolved through the industry’s care for its workers’ safety, and it has gotten consistently better over time. Today, every legitimate performer and producer adheres to the AIM testing protocols, and does so voluntarily and consistently; however, as with any system, it’s not completely foolproof. I take my performers’ health and safety very seriously, and leave nothing to chance or simply on someone’s “word of honor.” Honor is earned, not assumed.
There you go, “assuming” the “facts” again. Since these “facts” were not made public either through Evil Angel’s statements, or through any second, third, or “assumed” party, your bold statement of the “facts” is just so much talking out your ass again, general backside. Since you don’t work in the industry, your access to such information is negligible at best. You bore me.
With all due respect, general, you are whipping a dead horse.
First, even if AIM and all the testing centers used by performers were to release their rates of STD infection, do you think it would have any effect on performer decision making. I admire the quest for the truth and, honestly, the numbers should be made public but such a publication is more likely to result in more causes for increased regulation from industry outsiders while the performers keep doing the same old shit. Houstondon (who, BTW, is the most intelligent and level-headed person regularly contributing to this blog) made an excellent point that you failed to adequately address: who is to say that the majority of infected performers did not enter their condition through risky behavior outside of porn? Granted their behavior contaminates the entire industry pool, there many other performers who consistently choose to work with trusted individuals and thus rarely get infected.
Secondly, OSHA will not solve your grievances. At best, they would mandate a condom-only policy which would kill the adult industry and drive remaining production overseas or out of state. Performers would be out of work and would resort to a higher-risk occupation: illegal prostitution. But that would probably never happen. You think OSHA gives a damn if PERFORMERS don’t give a damn? You get performers to speak up, general, and people would not dismiss Lubben’s, Weinstein’s, and YOUR crusade. And that’s the bottom line.
I mean, don’t get me wrong, the industry needs more regulation but lets be reasonable here. Nobody can support regulation that kills their livelihood.
Shelley: please just focus on reaching troubled girls. Its what you do best.
Origen01,
Thandk you for your response. Regarding whether someone got the std in the workplace or out of the workplace….regarless of where they got it they are still bringing it with them into the workp;ace and exposing their coworkers.
If a person gets tested today, and gets chlam from a private trick tomorrow, she is bringing that chalmydia to the set every day for the rest of the 30 days that she is working under that test.
And Tird, you have no idea what type of access to information I have, none at all.
Yes, general insufficiency, you are the Grand Wazoo (no intended disrespect to Frank Zappa*).
MEDICAL ALERT: CA hospitals allowing spread of disease from patient-to-patient!
CMTA allowing spread of infectious diseases, including tuberculosis, on public transportation!
Bazooka Joe promoting infection of population by not cleaning gum off of public sidewalks!!!
Hey tirdboy,
Did you read tricia dev’s post on adultdvdtalk yesterday. Seems like this was the third time Brian was caught playing fast and loose with the testing requirements. And they never did anything until being called on it by the ‘message booards.”
And there is NO mention whatsoever of the females who he worked with that didnt have tests. Where is the industry vigilance and what actions are being taken against them?(none)
Yes, another great example of ‘self policing’ at work.
P.s. Council Zev was very appreciative of the articles I seent him. Seems the city coucnil has been under the mistaken impression that the industry strictly followed their ‘self imposed’ rules. Thank you for setting him straight. And thanks for letting him know that a number of performers do not even test at AIM and therefore the number of positive performers is even HIGHER than what the county has reported.
The industry cant thank TIRDBOY for letting the Los Angeles city council, and Board of Supervisors in on the porn biz secret about the complete lack of self policing, and haphazzard testing procedures.
Thank-you tirdboy, your contributions to the effort are greatly appreciated. Now please, keep it up, we’re counting on morons like you to make this even easier than it already is.
P.S. More OSHA complaints coming nexrt week…..10 more companies, and a few more against several of the 16 already delivered. Thanks Tird, keep pissin me off, it motivates me more than you know.
Hey Tird, do you have the balls to tell me what company YOU work for or own….If you think these OSHA citations are such bullshit, just let me know what company you work for and I’ll be sure you get put on the list. Then we’ll see if you keep thinking this is all bullshit, and believe me, the 16 companies cited already do NOT think this is bullshit.
And in case y’all havent figured it out yet, The AHF suit against the county, and the OSHA complaints are just the begining of the legal steps that are being taken. These are the precedent setting foundation on which the major lawsuits and injuntions will be based. These folks are more organized, and have more financial backing than you all could imagine in your worst fantasies. Whats happening now is NOTHING compared to whats coming.
Origen,
You are absolutely correct about getting performers to speak up. Along with the suit to the county, dozens of former and several current performers submitted affidavits in support of the suit. And several of the OSHA complaints were accompanied by test results and medical records of the participating performers. Like I said, these folks are alot more orgnaized than people HERE give them credit for. The 16 companies already know that. Its the “this aint gonna amount to anything” attitued of the lowbudget end of the industry that is going to blow it for everyone else, and that is EXACTLY what they are counting on, is the unorganized, backstabbing eachother, business as usual idiots who cant see past next week.
And now we have the like of Brian Humper pulling this shit which is just perfect ammo that couldnt come at a better time. Thank you Evel Angel and Brian Humper for making this public. Your timing is perfect.
You’re and idiot, general misdirection. Everybody who works in this industry knows that AIM has not always been the sole testing facility, so news flash there, sorry. However, AIM is the only voluntary testing facility the tests from which are widely accepted by MOST companies/producers. Nice try at making a splash though. Are you on the shortwave radio with your super sources? Then you should know all of this already, dumbass. Maybe you should continue to clue in the Council, since they can’t seem to locate anyone better to do their research for them. I can’t wait to see them trot out the “facts” they obtain from you.
Your weak attempts to further your agenda continue to amaze us all. Please continue.
Look out, the little general is on the march!
You want to know the name of my company, general super-sleuth? Why not put your little bean together with your super sources and figure it out. I challenge you to do your best, which still barely has you looking over the the edge of your little tin drum.
I sincerely hope I can continue to piss you off. The pleasure is all mine.
Why are you even bothering with this nobody, Third Axis? It’s just the same pointless shit over and over in every comments section. Isn’t he just some old obsessed loser in Colorado? I’m sure the L.A. City Council has nothing better to do than sit there and read the ramblings of a porn industry disease obsessive from Colorado. Fuck him.
You’re absolutely right, Prez. Ignorant hicks like him just need to be poked with a sharp stick every once in a while.
(watching from the sidelines at this bizarre form of tennis match)
Frankly, while porn does contribute a chunk of change to the area, I wouldn’t trust any of the politicians here as far as I could throw them. There have been enough state office holders over the years favorable to or at least tolerant of porn to stave off dozens of anti-porn bills, many of them still in office.
As an outsider to the area, I haven’t seen any drastic change in public opinion against porn to see them change their ways since porn is increasingly popular (attacking it will only benefit a small portion of the state legislature, others not wanting to be pegged as anti-free speech or expression). The City Council is more reactive but haven’t really gone out of their way to accommodate the anti-porners either (though I still don’t trust them).
To get any politician fired up enough to start a crusade, you have to appeal to their personal interests and show them why acting in one direction is better than acting in another direction or simply playing it safe and not acting at all. To get an entire political body, or at least enough votes to do something, takes an even larger effort. This current strategy of using an entrenched bureaucracy is just a go around in that sense but even if there were 100 OSHA complaints, they lack the manpower to truly enforce all the shooting schedules (and despite previous reports, LAPD is more likely to chummy up with those on sets than bust them outright).
That doesn’t mean OSHA complaints are not taken seriously since they represent significant legal threats and possible fines. The end result of those will likely be speeding up some of the downsizing that has taken place and returning portions of porn to the “good old days” when scenes were shot on the fly by single man crews. It certainly won’t make porn any safer for the performers and it will merely hasten the evolution of the industry to beat the rap, more scenes shot out of LA than ever before (perhaps spreading to nearby areas that are also cheaper to book).
And while CAL-OSHA has long had a woody for the porn industry, it is unlikely they will get the kind of resources needed to truly follow up on their desires of regulating it out of business as Lubben wants (especially in these economic times). The best means of defending against such an out of touch bureaucracy would be a couple of first class lawyers, the kind the city only dreams it could afford, hired by a handful of the impacted companies to fight the citations wholesale.
Oh, and while porn “numbers” are generally difficult to come by, many of those bandied about here are fair enough to work with to provide a ballpark idea of how many scenes have been shot in a year, how many cases of STDs have been caught in performers. It would be as foolish to use them as the infamous “$12 billion a year” for many assertions but not for all, said infection rates an issue needing to be handled whenever OSHA type regulation pops up.
Lastly, I think the Brian Pumper episode is a good example of the industry policing itself. Assuming my instincts are correct (that Karen and John are accurately portraying their side since there is a dispute), some paperwork errors led to Pumper being dropped. No one has the illusion that in today’s environment mistakes can’t be made in this regard, go look up some of the late filings by LA City Council members as an example, so there is no moral high ground given any legislative action will not cure the minute number of problems. If the state relied strictly on law enforcement to regulate the industry given cutbacks and layoffs of late, how responsive do you think it would be by comparison? Just sayin’…
(back to watching the tennis match of hatred)
So did a bunch of people, I’d be more worried about hep and syphilis.
Thank you, HD. As always, an excellent observation. Sharon Mitchell recently pointed out that the AHF has been erroneously going after the wrong political body, as only Cal-OSHA can institute any legal regulatory action. Of course, that’s not to say that L.A. city and county officials can’t put pressure on Cal-OSHA to act on the issue, but they seem, at least at this current stage, to be fairly indifferent. It’s entirely Cal-OSHA’s play here, and we’re all waiting to see what transpires with the recent events. I’m sure that the targeted companies will have some good lawyers on it.
In order to play tennis, you have to have a worthy opponent. Please don’t confuse hatred with contempt – hatred is irrational, while contempt is measured.
Tird,
Once again you are 100% wrong. The county health department has the authority to shut down any business that it deems to be a threat to the health and safety of its workers, OR the general public. Just like the county health department inspects restuaraunts and can closee them for health code violations, they can do the same on porn sets, medical facitlities etc…. It is the DUTY of the local health inspector to do this, and before you try to tell us there arent enough inspectors you might want to consider that they inspect EVERY single resturant in the city twice a year. Adding a few pron sets would be no problem at all.
As far as county health putting pressure on OSHA, you bet they do. It was the county health department that filed the TTBOY citations with OSHA, and we all know how well that turned out, dont we?
TIRDBOY, your statement that only OSHA can institute regulatory action is simply not accurate. The health deparment has the authority to shut business’ down ON THE SPOT if there are significant health code violations. And allowing prolonged exposure to blood borne pathogens is well within the “significant health code violation” on which they can act.
We’re talking about mandating the use of barrier protection here, dumbass.
“Adding a few pron sets would be no problem at all.”
We’re talking about THOUSANDS of individual scenes, not all produced at the same locations, those locations being primarily private homes scattered far and wide all over the county—I’ve covered this before with you—and a far cry from policing restaurants that you can find in the phone book. Next…
Third, on that last point, it might be fair to remember that while there are thousands of scenes shot at different locations, a great many of them are shot at one of maybe a dozen private homes, and a few stages. I agree that there simply isn’t now (nor will there ever be) enough manpower for the state to regulate to the extent that some are calling for, such a move would just push the industry back underground (maybe making all those motel owners happy).
General, if you ask most of those restaurateurs that get inspected, I suspect a great many of them don’t see a “real” inspection nearly so often. Having eaten at some ratty holes in Southern California awhile back, I suspect that the age old truism about bribery comes into play all too often, and adding on even more responsibilities to the inspectors’ left (didn’t a number of them get laid off to combat budget issues, with more to follow?) seems to offer a golden opportunity for more such official misconduct.
Given the economic pressures on the industry already, does anyone really think most companies are just going to sit by and watch the rest of their investments die up and wither away? Does anyone really think all these companies are going to go condom-dental dam only to appease the select group that has already made it clear that their end agenda is not OSHA-certified sex but the end of the industry altogether? I’m a realist enough to think that one way or another, the major players will circumvent the religious zealots like Lubben and the left wing taxaholics like Calderon…
I would respectfully correct you on that point, Don. I know for a fact that there are many more locations used than a dozen, and that’s not including the numerous hotel rooms, outdoor locations, and even in automobiles. Additionally, these locations change constantly. It’s true that there are a fixed number of production stages, and those of course would be prime targets of any potential “raids” by county health officials.
My point to the general, who insists on applying his conventional thinking regarding the potential regulation of the porn industry, is that this industry is unlike any other and doesn’t conform to the same type of oversight applied to other types of businesses. Additionally, the majority of locations where porn is shot are homes on private property, where county health officials, or even Cal-OSHA, have limited authority to enter and inspect for alleged health infractions, perhaps even requiring court-ordered search warrants and county sheriff’s deputies to serve them (I’m not a legal authority, so perhaps someone who is could answer this question). To even know the exact locations, they’d have to be tipped off, case by case and day to day, since there are no available lists of locations and shoot dates posted for their convenience. The logistical difficulties and significant potential financial burden to the county should be obvious, and the raiding of private homes could also pose a potential legal quagmire, not to mention exceptionally negative public relations.
Your other points are spot-on, but the little general will insist that the awesome power of Cal-OSHA will throw an inescapable net over the entire county of Los Angeles. He’s an avid fisherman, you know.
Tirdby,
Neither the Healtd department or OSHA need any type of warrant to enter a workplace, be it in a private home(permits needed for filming) or a regular business location.
YOU are completely correct that there are many location, difficult to locate, and are changing all the time. Just becasue enforcement may be difficult doesnt mean that you just dont enforce the law. There are also many locations, studios, etc. that are well known.
regarding your argument that there are too few inspectors let me make an analogy…..
Almost everyone speeds on the freeway. There arent near enough CHP officers to catch everyone. Should we just abandon the speed limit? No, of course not. But when youre the unlucky one who gets pulled over, the everyone else is doing defense just doesnt fly. You are guilty and you pay the price. If you get caught again the penalty is more severe.
SAame thing here, if youre the unlucky one who gets inspected, you get found guilty and pay the fine. If you get caught again the penalty is more severe.
A private home is no longer a private home when it is being used as a business. That home is now subject to the same laws as any other business.
You ues the term”throw an inescabable net over the entire county”…..bullshit. You dont need to catch everybody, just like the CHP doesnt catch every speeder.
Using film permits is also another easy way to track locations. If you dont have a permit, well thats just another example of the industry operating illegally, and you cant have workers comp on an UNPERMITTED film location.(ANOTHER VIOLATION).
Your statemnt…”This insustry doenst conform to the same type of oversight applied to other types of businesses” Where do I begin with this? I AGREEE 100% with this statement. This industry does not conform to the laws that other business’ do, and now they are getting called on it. This industry has gotten away with it for a long time, and that time is coming to an end.
There is also a motion in front of the California Insurance Commissioner regarding homeowners insurance for homes that are used for business purposes, and the need to provide workers comp insurance for sites used more than two times a year for business purposes.
tird, should we abolish the speed limit because there arent enough cops to enforce it.? Should we abolish the SEC because there arent enough inspectors to catch every inside trader? Should we abolish the police department because there arent enough cops to catch every criminal? Of course not, you work with what you have, and you make examples out of those you catch.
ANd housotn, regarding inspectors…..The amount of the fines that OSHA inspectoions gernerate far and above covers the cost of doing those investigations. Just llike local cops use traffic tickets and parking fines to genereate revenue, so does OSHA. I would think that the easy pickins for OSHA inspectors on porn sets would make it more likely that OSHA would inspect these locations.
Just out of curiosity…..Lets say the Health Department inspects one of the studio locations in the Valley. As part of their helth inspection they take culture samples off of various surfaces in that studio. How many here think that those cultures would come out nice and clean, without any bacteria or staph viruses? Better get that 10% bleach solution handy boys.
Just becasue enforcement may be difficult doesnt mean that you just give up and dont enforce the law. Finding murderes is difficult, finding inside traders is difficult, finding human traffickers is difficult, finding burglars is difficult…but you do what you can. According to Tirds logic, we should just abandon the border patrol and let all the illegals in, because enforcemnet is just to difficult.
“We’ve been doing it for years, and everybody else does it” are not legal defenses, they are admissions of guilt.
Third, I guess I wasn’t clear in my comments. The thrust of my point is that while there are many locations and impromptu scenes shot, a great many are shot in a highly limited number of locations (I see the same front doors, same furniture, same pools, and same warehouses used so often I almost want to index them for my reviews). As you say, the stages are more centralized and few in number (easy targets for inspections) but given many of those houses are paid for in full by renting to porn shoots (often owned by insiders too), I don’t see where they would be hard to cover.
In terms of the inspectors or police having access to the houses, I strongly suspect that when a home is used for a commercial purpose, it falls more under commercial laws. Just as you can bar the police from coming into your place of work by locking the door though, they seem to have a tendency to overcome such obstacles fairly easily (and remember who did not cooperate). And it’s not like the neighbors of these houses don’t complain all the time either, the lack of a permit alone enough to get equipment confiscated, people getting a ride downtown, and homeowners potentially subjected to FAST laws among others. I fully agree that in a crackdown situation, companies would diversify their shooting location portfolio though. 😉
General, you make some accurate points regarding policing the locations and numbers of inspectors but I would counter that such inspectors are subject to the whim of the populace too. Inspecting a restaurant is far more important because even a marginal restaurant is going to serve hundreds of people in a day whereas a porn shoot might impact a couple of self selecting performers (and that is only a single example). Restaurants also tend to be centrally located so a single inspector can “service” many more of them whereas some obscure private home will take a major chunk of time out of one’s schedule for a day. Without getting too flippant, an inspector will get more “bang for the buck” by staying inside a small area than one of these sets in most cases, violations only being able to be written regarding what the inspector personally witnesses for this kind of inspection (I worked in the food service industry when I was younger and personally dealt with such inspections; no place is 100% compliant, nor are they written up that way lest the courts kick back most paper as being handled by overly zealous personnel).
And again, while the fines are POTENTIALLY large, we are no longer talking about TT Boy styled shoots where someone contracted HIV and there is a specific complainant. I disagree with the likes of Lubben when it comes to choices made by performers, perhaps you as well, in that while I think there is no way to legislate all risk away in a manner that people are going to comply with. The courts have ruled the industry is legal and for all the side attacks trying to get around said rulings, pornographers have a rich history of side stepping the law when needed. I’m not advocating they do so and I don’t agree with the premise that all companies are breaking the law but a handful of former porners with sour grapes is far from the biggest threat the industry has survived in the past.
And in answer to your question regarding culture samples from sets, given the plethora of linen tossed on those infamously familiar couches, I suspect the disease rate would not be all that bad (the vinyl/leather couches just one more chore for the PA’s to have to tend to).
As an aside, I’d be curious to know how an OSHA case would work in court for this type of general violation. Most people have received a traffic ticket or two in their lives, usually hiring some cheap shyster to use the system against itself. If a porner is given a ticket and disputes it, the ability to tie up a court for hours on end seems pretty likely in what amounts to a he said/she said dispute that many citizens are going to find painfully abusive should it come to that. Further, beyond simple paperwork checks, I can readily see how such inspections would flunk the smell test when it came to inspectors trying to watch a scene being shot…
Houston,
Again, excellent post. You are correct…”the courts have ruled the industry is legal….”
And because this is true, the industry is governed by the same laws as any other legal industry.
And all this talk about secret locations, and moving locations more often kind of seems like the actions of somone who knows they are guilty of something and are trying to hide from those who would enforce those laws.
Regarding inspectors ‘watching scenes being shot’, they dont need to do that to see the violations, they are right there on the video for everyone to see.
Porners, like any ohter industy can fight the citations. Thousand of people fight theri traffic tickets every day. That doesnt stop the cops from writing more tickets. The porners can fight the citations all they want. When the OSHA representative shows the tape of the violation, that will be some pretty hard evidence to overcome.
The complaints against the 16 current companies are for the EXACT same violations as TTBOY’s company,,TT appealed, and lost…big time. The violations are exactly the same, it just so happens that the violations on TT’s set led to HIV infections. But the violations are the same none the less.
Regarding legal access to workplaces, no warrant is needed. OSHA and Health Department representantives do not need a warrant, but a refusal to let them do their inspection “can and will be used against them” in the final ejudication of the case.
Here is a simple question, Does the porn industry have to follow the laws that every other industry does? If not, why not. And jsut becasue enforcement would be difficult is not a legal excuse for violating the law?
the general Says: “The amount of the fines that OSHA inspectoions gernerate far and above covers the cost of doing those investigations. Just llike local cops use traffic tickets and parking fines to genereate revenue, so does OSHA.”
If city government worked like this, they’d be giving everyone a huge tax cut and/or business incentives because of all of the revenue made. Last I checked, traffic tickets and OSHA fines are not enough to plug all of the holes in your average municipal budget. As if they did, or even had a hope and a prayer of doing so, they’d put cops on every intersection and every building and construction site would be facing an inspection.
Or to think of it another way — to generate the kind of money you’re supposing, would also mean you’d have to hire more cops. That means more potential pensions, heathcare costs, insurance, cars, desks, police stations, et cetera. It’s a snake eating it’s tail. OSHA isn’t going to grow large enough, and no legislator with a straight face is going to propose as such, to enforce all of the porn being shot in Los Angeles county.
I also agree with Hustondon/Third Axis — the regulations and rules already in place, successfully lead to someone like Brian Pumper being shown the door. Regardless of Evil Angel’s response when the shit hit the fan, he’s gone and life goes on. The proper amount and enforcement of current regulations work because they go a long way toward keeping everyone honest.
Will some rule-breakers fall through the cracks? Absolutely. Does that mean the system of enforcement is bad? No, it simply means it is a human construct and since no one is 100% right, it will contain a few flaws as everyone does the best they can to comply with the rules.
Looks like the ‘general’ needs to be demoted down to a ‘buck private’ with that kind of logic at work.
The General — “Here is a simple question, Does the porn industry have to follow the laws that every other industry does? If not, why not. And jsut becasue enforcement would be difficult is not a legal excuse for violating the law?”
To the first part — no. They only have to follow the laws specific to their industry. Just as a coal miner doesn’t have to follow the same laws and regulations as a ketchup bottler, neither does the Porn Industry have to follow laws and regulations that don’t apply to them.
To the second part — no and yes. Sure, enforcement would be financially and logistically difficult in the scenario you’ve been describing. Likewise, no one is advocating Porn Valley should say start making snuff movies tomorrow because it would be hard to catch the filmmakers. People know the rules and either follow or ignore them (the latter at their own peril). As your average lawyer will say, “…ignorance of the law is a not a good defense…”. Again, no one is advocating that everyone in Porn just ‘act dumb’ if the heat comes sniffing around their set. People know the rules and by-and-by stick to them in order to go about their business legally and without incident.
General, actually, I think the porn industry is governed by a bunch of laws not applicable to other industries, many interpretations of existing laws using tortured legal reasoning to fit square pegs into round holes. I don’t suggest that absolves anyone in the industry from trying to minimize the harm done to anyone else, just that consensual sex between two or more partners has been ruled legal and there was nothing in the ruling that required dental dams or condoms.
As far as companies trying to avoid inspectors, as I pointed out, some inspectors are so tough and adopt such a hardcore attitude regarding inspections that no one would want to test their luck, this includes all sorts of businesses. Is it wrong for them to think this way? I don’t think it is, nor do I think most sets have illegal behavior taking place; risks like bodily fluid exchanges being a recognized norm among most performers.
My questions regarding how such inspections would take place and what evidence they would rely on is another area needing some thought. You suggest that the video shot by the director is sufficient but remember that a lot of porn is shot months to years before the final product is released. I don’t see the inspectors getting free reign to video alongside the directors for evidence and that was what I was asking for clarification about.
Court: Tickets do not pay for the cost of enforcement or even subsidize them enough to merit much notice. LA police and health inspectors make pretty good money so paying them to go to court on off days or tying them up in court for the day on cases likely to be reset repeatedly. Using the city of Houston as an example, when a “friend” of mine got a ticket, he went to court several times. The cop that wrote the ticket was being paid around $65 an hour to go and it was for an out of date sticker case that was dismissed at the end of the day. Said cop was stuck in court costing the city much more than even a maximum fine would have brought the city, unable to write anyone else the entire time.
In all though, inspections are important to curb the more flagrant violations but using a “we finally found a way to shut down porn altogether” approach is going to backfire legally as well as administratively. This is the flawed reasoning in Lubben’s logic (okay, one of several hundreds flaws) that should be addressed. Porn is mobile, more mobile than most industries these days and can literally take the show on the road (as several here have pointed out). Other counties will welcome them if LA goes as far as Lubben wants but I really don’t see much danger of that taking place for now.
Absolutely correct on all points, Don. In my earlier comment, I didn’t mean to suggest that the adult industry doesn’t or shouldn’t conform—as in obey—to the existing laws in place. I should have more correctly said that the industry doesn’t lend itself, by virtue of its mobile and constantly changing production locations, to the same type of oversight and inspection applied to the restaurant or any other industry.
It would be easy to take two steps over the L.A. county line and find locations at which to shoot. I work almost entirely outside of L.A. and have used well over a dozen individual locations in the last year alone, and I’m always coming up with new ones to ensure variety and freshness in my scenes. As to the possibility of judging the actual location by viewing a scene on video, I’ve already addressed this point previously to our little ‘general GPS’ here. How can you accurately tell where an indoor scene was shot, and in which county? Is Cal-OSHA going to start to subpoena production records—they are rarely kept—or shooting permits? This entire suggested process just gets more and more involved and ridiculous, and the public demand just doesn’t exist to enforce it, in my opinion.
Do I ignore the speed limit, general do-right? All the time, and I’ll bet that you do too. But maybe you’re that idiot in the HOV lane, driving two miles-an-hour under the posted limit, your hands white-knuckled at 10-and-2-o’clock.