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Stigma

Many users and producers of porn believe that their product deserves some social stigma. Most, if not all, however, disagree with those Christians who believe that sexual sins are the biggest sins.

Faceman911: "Do I have a great deal of respect for porn workers? No. Do I like watching porn? Yup. Are these two facts irreconcilable? Of course not."

Bendover: "I am not the issue. I jerk off, and I don't care who knows it. What I do, I do in the privacy of my home. I am not in the public eye earning dollars for being a pig. As for my contempt for the women that I derive pleasure from... They're not women to me; they're things. You are probably one of the guys who goes to a strip joint and tells all your buddies that a dancer liked you.

Here's a tip; without that dollar bill sticking out of your mouth, they don't want to know you. Believe me, I am under no illusions that I am Mr. Holy or anything. I am just a realist. I'm tired of the babe-in-the-woods routine by some of the girls and their supporters. Call me a hypocrite if you will, but most males are painfully naive.

"I worked at a gentlemen's club for 7 years. The house dancers and feature acts do not see faces. They see money and only money (with a few notable exceptions, I must add. Barbara Dare, for instance, was quite engaging). Once they get your dough, they couldn't care less if you died on the way home. Don't fool yourselves; it's the truth. If you're a porn slut, act like it. Know your role, and don't expect to be taken seriously. Your career choice has pretty much eliminated that possibility. I'm not someone who hates his mother or secretly wears women's clothing." (RAME = rec.arts.movies.erotica)

Porn star Midori aka Michele Watley: "I was naive to think I could keep my identities separate. When someone from our industry found out my real name it spread like wild fire and I was forced to tackle keeping my own identity separate from my sisters. That was one of the reasons I did [the TV show] Hard Copy. I wanted people to hear my side of the story before some writers started gossiping and doing what they do. I wished that I was never put into that position but I have learned how to handle the whole thing. In a way it has helped in some areas and it also has put a stain in other areas. I never wanted people to think I was riding on her coattail and involving her [sister and singer Jody Watley]. That's why I changed my name when I made the decision to enter the adult industry. So in my case having a stage name and keeping my real name out of porn was important to me. I have been lucky that no one has ever put that on a box despite the fact they still mention it anyway in some reviews (not AVN) but AVN did put it in the "Loose Lips". Oh well, that's the price you sometimes pay when you play."

The most offered argument by members of the industry against using real names is that it leaves porn stars vulnerable to stalking.

"If I wanted to stalk a pornstar," writes the Director on RAME, "it's ridiculously simple.

"(a) If she is on the road, go there. Wait for her in the parking lot of the club; watch her get into a car. Follow that car to the hotel or her apartment. Do whatever it is stalkers do.

"(b) There are only a few studios in LA where most of the porn is shot. Stake them out. If you're a stalker it doesn't matter how much time it takes, because you're obsessed and won't rest until you are no longer obsessed.

Eventually your star will how up. When she's done with work, follow her wherever she goes. Do whatever it is stalkers do.

"(c) Most stars will be at a convention or awards show. Join F.O.X.E. and go to their awards show -- and when everyone is done, follow whatever lovely home.

"(d) Buy tickets to the AVN Awards. During the big party, target the favorite pornstar, and follow her around. Eventually she'll go back to the room. And then she's like a bird in a cage.

"So in neither of these examples did I need to know anyone's real name; and each of them are very much within the realm of the realistic.

"Now God forbid anyone actually does this; and I am sure I'll end up catching some heat and contributing to the "Internet is Evil" conception; but this is meant to show mostly that the "stalker" argument is a bunch of shit. All the real name does is save someone time so they can go right to a street address; but for most stalkers, I was under the impression that the STALKING was the part that made them happy."

Several months later, when the Director's real name appeared in Playboy, he changed his tune. His in-laws found out about his widely published interest in porn and went nuts. He quickly pulled out of the rec.arts.movies.erotica newsgroup, and implored people not to use his real name in their posts.

Ex-porn star Holly Ryder also doesn't see the "stalker" argument as a valid one. "The only reason I can see for not wanting a real name published (and yes, this is the reason I have for not always wanting my two names connected) is to keep different aspects of one's life separate from each other. I do not want to go back to my hometown and be greeted with, Ohhhh, so you went into porn, huh? …These are people I grew up with, and for some reason, relationships change after people know you've fucked on film. Also, if I go for a job interview, I would not want a prospective employer to assume 'Hey this woman was in porn, she must be easy.' And with the strong biases against the industry that many people have, it would be awkward, if not trying, to have my real name closely associated with my screen name."

Busmiller writes on RAME that porn resembles pro wrestling. "The performers usually have total disdain for their audience and are tolerant at best, with exceptions.

"They don't want you to know who they really are, whether they're married, how old they really are, ad nauseam.

"They have this right but they're grossly naive if they think this right will be granted by fans with no questions asked. In fact, it only makes their fan-base more curious. IMHO, this goes for the casual renters, the potential Mark David Chapmans and most in between."

LThurston writes: "The whole idea is to make it as

difficult as possible for those who have a stalker mindset. Geez, don't give 'em a road map. After all Jeff, you don't want Max Volume showing up on these young women's doorsteps and telling them they have to get on the Stairmaster?"

Faceman911: "The point is that the entire "stalker" argument is a (somewhat) clever ruse porno people employ to dodge the issue of real names. It's clever because it forces the opponent to take an unfavorable position. No one is going to defend stalkers, so the conversation usually goes like this:

"Why don't you want people to know your real name?"

"Well, um, y'know there're all those stalkers out there, and, uh..."

"Say no more, I understand. Nobody likes stalkers, so I guess that explains it."

"And if God forbid someone tries to dig deeper, they get the ole, "I can't believe you want these poor girls to get stalked" argument. Makes you want to throw up your hands. BUT...

"Does anyone believe that a guy (and I'm assuming everyone's talking about guys here) who is so demented he'd be willing to risk criminal prosecution just so he can get off by following a porn star around would be deterred because he doesn't know the girl's full name? These girls are in the public eye constantly. Anyone who wanted to stalk them, would. No one sits at home saying to himself, 'Well, y'know, I would've never done this otherwise, but right there on rame it says that Farrah Fuckme's real name is Jane Doe! I better go get my stalking shoes on...' C'mon.

"…Porn people don't want there real names known because they want to keep their 'porn' lives separate from their 'real' lives. How many porn stars tell their parents that they get fucked for a living? That wouldn't go over well in my house. I think that deep down, many of the girls are ashamed of what they do, or at least aren't proud of it, and they want to be spared the embarrassment of ten years down the road having their neighbors, or co-workers, find out who they are and what they've done.

"But you can't have it both ways. You can't be famous and anonymous. Now, I have zero interest in knowing porn stars' real names. What bothers me is the hypocrisy inherent in the adult industry. If you want to cavort around and scoff at society's "puritanical" moral code, that's fine. But doesn't hiding behind fake names undercut your point? Sure, you could say that if society would change, you wouldn't have to hide. But why should society have to change to accommodate you?

"As much as I like porn, I think there should be some stigma attached to it. If I ever went into porn, I would definitely use a dumb fake name, maybe 'Buck Naked' or something. But I wouldn't pretend that fear of stalkers motivated me to keep my real name secret. And I wouldn't criticize "society" for not being hip enough to deal with my choice of lifestyle. I'd admit that I didn't want people outside the porn world to know that I did porno movies. Why can't porn stars just admit the truth?" (RAME)

Max Volume: "It is hilarious that porn stars, who are public figures, think that they have some special privacy rights. The fact is, any stalker, who wants to find out a real name, can do it easily. All one has to do is get a hold of the model release form and everything is available there. And, many of the adult film companies send these out, with chromes to reviewers such as myself.

"I certainly do not want any porn star to be stalked, but I doubt that revealing real names…does anything to contribute to stalkings.

"I enjoy learning a porn stars real name because it gives me insight into their persona. I remember when I read Asia Carrera's real name, I thought to myself, 'geez, it's hard to imagine a girl with the name [insert Asia's real name here] could be doing anal,' etc. It just seemed weird. Also, real last names allow me to have a more accurate idea of the girl's ethnic background, which I like to know." (RAME)

Hammy5150: "These people live in a spotlight and somehow they act like "reality" isn't supposed to touch them. I also find their attitudes funny. Anybody who is crazy enough to stalk a porn star is going to do it no matter what the circumstances. Finding out a real name is easy. What if I were worried about possible prosecution for owning an adult movie where an actress's age was in question? Letters would be out in a New York minute asking for the proof of age data (which obviously has the real names) from the movie's producer.

"Sometimes I think a lot of this "hiding my real name" stuff is done more to "separate" their "adult films" life from their "real" life so family, etc doesn't find out about it, rather than it being done for "security reasons". Could this be partially due to the stigma? Shame?"

Mark Kernes of AVN: "As a reviewer, I can see a certain logic to knowing a porn star's real name. The reason I know some (by no means all) is to help prevent that real name from showing up in an AVN review, since certain video companies apparently can't distinguish between real and stage names when making up the credits.

"That aside, I still don't think it's any of the general public's business what a star's real name is. They get hassled enough in public from jerks who recognize them at the grocery store or whatever, that they don't need identifying information broadcast in newsgroups that are read around the world. It doesn't seem to me that anyone's wish to know a real name in order to give some putative insight into their persona in any way outweighs the very real possibility that they could be stalked and attacked. For instance, I recently spoke with Jill Kelly, who told me that a house she lived in last year was burglarized, and all the thief took was her dildo/vibrator collection. That's sick, to my way of thinking, and I also think she's lucky she wasn't personally attacked." (RAME)

Hammy5150: "This is the stuff that just kills me...... What in the hell do these people think is going to happen? They put themselves in the spotlight and yet they want to be left alone by the "general" public? Why get into a business where these things will happen if you don't want to be noticed?" (RAME)

Brandy Alexandre: "There's nothing wrong with being recognized. There is something wrong with people who get your address and phone number through any variety of shady connections. Perhaps you missed the guy who was pissed at me and posted my name with my address and phone number to a couple of newsgroups." (RAME)

JDavid: "Having read both sides of this argument for several years now, I'm still at a loss to grasp the importance of knowing someone's real name. Security, potential harassment, privacy issues, I can see. Paranoia maybe, but all it takes is one nut case to justify the concern (does the real name Mark David Chapman ring a bell?)

"Why, though, the heavy arguments against someone's wanting to remain anonymous? Whenever I answer the phone and hear, "Who is this?" my response is, "You called me. Who are you?" My point is that a person is entitled to whatever privacy s/he wishes. The reasons for assuming a nom de porn may be as varied as in the mainstream world and those reasons are legion.

"I suppose what I'd like to hear in this debate is why it is important or necessary to "reveal" a real name. All I've read are variations of "because I can" and "it isn't illegal/it's relatively easy."

Hammy5150:"I don't care if I know a "starlets" name or not. It means nothing to me because these people mean nothing to me (I don't know them and never will so why should I care?). What I get a little bit tired of is when you see somebody such as L-ke Ford writing a book (which is MEANT to be historical and accurate [yeah, I know... it falls short on these thing but he seems to be trying] portrayal of the industry) and printing "truths" about a person (i.e. a name) and all these porn people do is whine. My complaint is for these people to not be so fuckin' naive. There are going to be people out there (for whatever reason, some good and some bad) who like to dig for things and you cannot be so stupid as to think that the truth won't come out eventually. If you are afraid of the ramifications of a "real name" being found out, than stay the fuck out of the industry in the first place. That way you never have a problem." (RAME)

Pat Riley: "…The knowledge of the actress's real name and address, or even part of the country, would be of help to someone stalking a no-longer-current girl. I've actually had something like this happen from two guys (independently) regarding the same actress whose last movie was around 1981.

"Guy A, who was married with a nice looking wife and three kids (he sent me a photo eventually), initially wrote asking if I knew of any compilations as he couldn't get some of the movies the actress was in. I told him what I knew and then he wrote back (you've got no idea of how many lonely guys there are seeking pen pals but that's another story) telling me about how he couldn't live without this girl and how he was willing to do anything or go anywhere to contact her and could I give him a real name/address etc. He had apparently contacted all the video companies and they weren't willing to help (not surprising!) and I was his last resort blah, blah. I eventually got rid of him, after about 4 letters, by suggesting that she was by now probably six feet under from a drug OD which resulted in a very frosty 'I won't be buying any of your books again.'

"The second guy was a little more subtle, pretending to be a B movie producer and he had to have this girl--just right for the part etc. I suggested he try World Modeling or Pretty Girl and see if they had her name and address. Then he started a series of letters telling me they wouldn't give him any information unless he had her real name and threatening me that if I knew what was good for me I'd send it right away.

"Fortunately both these guys were in the South and I really didn't have any fear of them staking out my PO Box and of course I can't prove they were actually going to do the girl any harm but it's a creepy feeling. Both were well educated. Guy A was a programmer with an aerospace company and the second guy at least used a PC to write his letters and had a letterhead.

"Critics per se don't have to have the information [real names], only people publishing photos of persons engaged in sex, simulated or otherwise but that would cover any magazine reprinting chromes from the movies. In any large organization these should be split off from the screener and be held by a custodian of records (see the fine print at the bottom of AVN's contents page as an example) and not go to the reviewer. In small places like mine, I just put on another hat and file them in another box.

"Having said that I really don't need them because I don't publish anything with people engaged in sex, simulated or otherwise. Unfortunately there are lots of gray areas here which will only be decided by a court case, such as:

"Can I publish a cropped head and shoulders taken from a photo of a couple copulating and hide behind the "not engaged in sex" excuse? Prometheus's lawyer doesn't seem to worry but the house lawyer who writes for AVN seems to think it's not a valid excuse however Prometheus's lawyer says just to be on the safe side we won't.

"Can I rely on photocopies of ID and a notarized statement that they're true and correct? The problem here is if the video company goes out of business or has lied. There's no provision in the law to say "You're in the clear" under these circumstances. Prometheus's lawyer says they (not me) have to examine the originals or at least was thinking along those lines until we decided to go glamour shots only.

"This is a real bag of worms and for my books not worth the hassle. Judging from what I do get, if the government ever wanted to get nasty, this would be a good area. Not only are some movies missing ID for all the cast but in one case recently I believe one performer was

actually under 18 (by a little less than a month), if one relied in the date of production as being the date by which all shooting had finished. Of course that doesn't seem too reliable either." (RAME)

JDavid: "I'm not an actor and have no connection with the industry. However, since 1980 I have written for dozens of adult/sex publications, from fiction for HIGH SOCIETY, a score of digests, gay mags, and various other

publications, copy for photo layouts in some magazines, even as a reviewer for AFW and AVN. I used pseudonyms for my writing (still do), not so I won't be stalked, not out of shame or embarrassment, but I don't want my family to be the butt of comments or derision by conservative friends or neighbors. We all know that our folks have friends who would suddenly give 'em crap about having a "demented, perverted child" who was involved in the sex biz.

"My real name appears only on the checks and here [rec.arts.movies.erotica]. I figure if someone

who knows my family is reading this, they'd have to admit reading it here. Besides, writing about sexual activity doesn't carry quite the same potential for harassment as other sex-related endeavors do.

"So I can understand why an actor wants to maintain some privacy, if not for their own safety and security, from possible repercussions to or from family. [Remember the phrase, "Parents: Do you know where your kids are?" Public pressure and opinion is still applied to the family even after the child passes 18. Or 21. Or 40.]

Sheldon Ranz: "Why SHOULD there be any stigma [to porn]? As long as there are people like you [Faceman911], censorship will continue to be a menace. Your argument reeks of some gay men who feel ashamed of who they are and enlist in some bogus "conversion" therapy to become straight. Shame leads to low self-esteem, which is bad for one's health. Do the right thing - leave us alone."

Faceman911 replies: "Nothing I said has anything to do with censorship. Your argument does. You not only want the right to do what you want, watch what you want, etc. (all of which I agree with), you want to silence anyone who might not think it's 100% OK. You want people to grant you your freedoms, and also never to disagree with your views.

"In that respect, your argument is similar to some gay men who can't stand the fact that some people don't wholly approve of their lifestyle. Just as it is their right to be gay and not be discriminated against, others retain the right to disapprove (I don't, I'm just using a hypothetical here).

"And in this case I'm not even condemning anyone (which, according to 1st Amendment absolutists such as yourself, I clearly have a right to do) for being involved in porn, I'm just voicing the opinion that perhaps society is correct in putting some type of stigma on sex workers.

"Finally, did it ever occur to you, when you were formulating your "shame leads to low-self esteem which leads to health problems" philosophy, that perhaps low self-esteem is a consequence of making poor choices in life (e.g. selling sex for money), and shame is simply a way of

telling you that what you are doing is not completely all right?" (rec.arts.movies.erotica = RAME)

Ex-porn performer Brandy Alexandre: "…There will always be a stigma on porn and porn performers for as long as there is a belief in God and Christ, and mostly from those few so deep in that particular forest they cannot see the trees. In other words, they will judge and will be judged for it.

"Porn serves a very useful purpose to many aspects of human sexuality. Jeffrey Dahmer used it to try to cure himself of homosexuality and serial killerism. Of course it didn't work, but we have no idea the number of people for whom

it has. On the lighter side, it provides release for those poor, uptight guys that have been without a date for a week or their entire adult life. And this is all over the world -- Even in non-repressed societies or regions, porn is popular for reasons too numerous to mention.

"On the other hand, in the more free countries the porn is much harder, more brutal, and certainly more graphic. This could be from the phenomena regarding wanting to see what you can't do. If you can do EVERYTHING in some corners of the world, the porn will be pretty darn surprising. Euro-porn with pissing, shitting, underage girls, rape, etc., is strong evidence to support that. For this reason I might say that porn should be suppressed and stigmatized so that we don't venture into an area where people become abused,

seriously exploited (which I don't think they are now), and perhaps injured or killed (damn burros, anyway).

"I don't think the argument is whether or not there "should be" a stigma on porn, it's a matter of how bad it is or will remain, and how many people will actively participate in its proliferation. Also, will that participation be

from the aforementioned Christian judgers, or the porn people themselves such as Bill "I say porn is bad and dirty, so I can be useful by trying to make 'the kids' feel better because of it" Margold. Talk about creating your own market.

"But I digress. No, I don't think there "should be," but there is. You can't choose to have it or not. The real question is how should we deal with it?" (RAME)

Mike Paul: "It is now, and for quite a while will be, important for a ex-porn actress to feign embarrassment to get ahead in the mainstream. Ginger Lynn Allen isn't doing enough of this, and her career suffers for it.

"Neither Traci or Marilyn showed any signs of embarrassment DURING their careers. Marilyn used to get fisted on-stage, and "served lunch" for tips. Traci was supposedly quite the off-screen animal. This only becomes embarrassing when you want folks to buy the New You, and the Old You has to be discarded...

"Pick a porn star, no matter how nasty, and give her a mainstream career, and suddenly the past will be described in ways you won't believe..."

Rob A.: "The sex industry is a vampire. It sucks out the money as quick as it can. That's what drives almost everyone in the industry. They buck against the by-laws by saying that they are just like any other business and so shouldn't be restricted. But then you walk into these places and see how filthy they are, you see the drunks passed out on the table, etc.--and you realize, these places aren't at all like any other business. Do you know of any other store in America besides an adult bookstore where the management not only allows but encourages people to go into a private booth and jack off to a porn movie?

"Let's not kid ourselves that the sex industry is just the same as any other. At base, when you talk just about money, it may be; but when we start talking about what it contributes to society and to its community, things go in a very different direction.

"Yes, I openly acknowledge that there is a certain

shame attached to being a porn consumer. In one way or another, and to some extent, we have all internalized it; it would be impossible not to. That's part of how society enforces the stigma.

"I suspect that most of us don't go out to dinner

with a client and start talking about the latest "Anal Auditions" tape over the soup course. I suspect that we don't walk people through our houses and point out all the photos of naked porn stars that we have hung on our walls! We wouldn't hang those pictures for fear of some one dropping by! Hell, I'd bet money that most of us have our porn tapes/books/mags hidden away somehow (either from wife, kids, or company).

"I don't think porn should become as mainstream as TV, I don't want to have a dinner conversation about it, I don't want it commonplace." (rec.arts.movies.erotica)

Brad Williams: "Mainstream Americans view porn producers as "pimps" and performers as "prostitutes." As long as the general trend in porn for no-story wall-to-wallers continue, that stigma-perception will probably remain.

One could argue that Golden Age material did involve some elements of acting and production, but what you see now is devoid of that.

"Now, you have the VCR's and no theatrical releases. The quality is absolute garbage 90% of the time. There is no acting, very few budgets of any size, and most of your performers feel like they have to mutilate their tits in order to please men. There are unfortunate incidents like Savannah, Alex Jordan, Megan Leigh, Shauna Grant, Cal Jammer, etc. and HIV, which heap another stigma on porn to go with that of lousy movies. Add to that the convicted criminals like Reuben Sturman and Mike Thevis who controlled almost all of porn's distribution, and it gets even sleazier.

"I don't think porn has progressed whatsoever in the post-VCR period towards erasing any stigmas, but have rather added to them to the point that some casual fans are not going to fight for porn with their heart in it. Put out a decent product, and porn will get more and more new fans, and fans that will put their names and reputations on the line to fight for it.

"The existing stigma benefits the present porn industry. The companies that survive do so because the stigma keeps talented and creative people from pursuing porn as a career, and this benefits those already "inside." But these people wouldn't make anything better if there was no stigmas whatsoever, they have already shown they don't have an ounce of proud in what they do, and the inability to do the basics of a technical production. Most of them can't even get your dick hard with good-looking people fucking, something that takes real incompetency to screw-up.

"The problem with porn is that most of it sucks, so the really good stuff gets lumped into the shit-heap with the 90% garbage, hence, people associate porn as all being the same: 'Here's the pizza, let's fuck and let me blow a load on your face.'

"Most cities have a ton of statistics that show high-crime figures in areas with porn. This stems from the 70's and 80's where cities battled to ban porn altogether. As a compromise, they decided to zone out "Combat Zones" to stick all the adult entertainment, and usually these areas had crime problems and were already decaying. As people fled from cities to the suburbs in droves any way (not to get away from porn, but to get away from a lot of other things), these combat zone areas quickly became even worse.

"If you stick 20 porn shops, jack-shacks, liquor stores, and strip clubs all on one street in a "combat zone," you know there will be increased crime. There were already drug dealers and thugs in these areas, some of whom kill for turf. Add the homeless into the mix, and locals can proudly point to statistics showing the Combat Zones as having the highest crime area around.

"The whole point was to take the worst area in town, and "give" it to adult entertainment. A combat zone is usually like a DMZ anyway, people know that the cops are going to usually ignore the area to begin with. Porn in and of itself is not going to increase crime if it is allowed to be in decent areas, unless the owners are looking to add to their profits by fronting for prostitution or drug-dealing on the side." (RAME)

George Lois: "I agree with Faceman911 that there should be a stigma attached to porn; it should remain underground, if only because (like Pat Riley advanced) it detracts from the main purpose of sex: procreation. Porn addiction is a dysfunctional, sociopathic, masturbatory activity. Not much survival-of-the-fittest value in that. The only redeeming

social value porn has, IMO, is perhaps to help unload the loins to clear the mind. A necessary evil, at best.

"I understand that some people would want to lobby for porn to fill their pockets, but why would anybody want to fight with their HEARTS? Porn is THE heartless endeavor par excellence. A prick-has-no-conscience story. Is anybody ever proud of watching porn?"

Poster: "How does one over come the fear of renting pornography at the local video store? Or should I go to a video store that is strictly pornography? I can rent movies if the clerk is a male, but I get a little sketchy if its a female standing there..and MOST of the time I go to rent it IS a female.. What should I do?" (RAME)

Eric Dew: "The only thing to fear is fear itself. I go to a mom-and-pop store and rent almost exclusively porn. Who gives a shit whether the person behind the counter thinks that's bad or not? I'm most certainly sure that the person doesn't give a damn. As for a female clerk, so what? Are you scared that she'll report you to the cops? The mom-and-pop store I frequent is usually clerked by the mom. At another video store I used to frequent, there was an attractive 17-year old. Her presence certainly didn't detract me from going to the store.

"As for what you should do, I recommend you go to a mom-and-pop, and if they actually have an adult section, go there and pick out the raunchiest one, perhaps the 4-hours fuck marathon (Jizz Drinkers, or something like that).

Go up to the counter and rent it. Once you can do that with no problems, renting a Janine/Vivid flick is nothing." (RAME)

Pat Riley: "You should recognize that the store is in the business of renting pornos otherwise they wouldn't stock them. If they were to make fun of you or comment on your selection you wouldn't rent from them and they'd lose business so even if there's a woman there she's not going to do or say anything. Most females in video stores are well aware of the nature and content of the videos and are not in any way shocked, disgusted or censorious--at least that's my experience over many years.

"An anecdote. A couple of years ago I was standing at the check-out chatting with the owner when a guy comes up and presents a gay movie box. The girl (beside us) made some innocuous comment like "Oh, all male" as she checked out the movie. When the customer, who I don't think even heard, had left, the owner fired the girl on the spot.

"If it would make you happier, try to find a movie store that has lots of porno renting male customers. You'll just be one of a group--an anonymous face in the crowd."

Another poster: "I wish that some of the raunchiest videos didn't also have some of the raunchiest titles. I'm not overly concerned with what the cashier might think but I'm uncomfortable checking out something with an extremely offensive title next to some family with young kids renting the latest Disney flick. Of course, going to the "Perverts Only Express Check-Out" solves this problem."

Another poster suggests:

1. Stop giving a damn about what a cashier thinks about you.

2. If you are so ashamed of watching porn, perhaps you shouldn't do it.

3. Don't rent when there is a female.

4. Rent at adult video stores.

5. Ease your nerves when renting from a female by asking her if she has ever done porn or whether she can recommend a good tape with lots of ass to mouth action.

6. Get drunk before going to the video store.

7. Put a bag over your head before approaching the counter.

8. Don't bother to rent, just rob the place.

9. Just rent Vivid films."

>My question is.. how does one over come the fear of renting pornography at the local video store?

"Easy. Would you be afraid to rent an action film in which the body count goes into the hundreds? A slasher film in which teenage girls have their organs splattered across the screen? A comedy that pokes fun at the mentally ill? Films that hold up violent criminals as role models? "Spring Break" movies that insult and degrade women? Compared to all of these, what's so bad about a film that shows consenting adults doing something that most people think is fun? [okay, there are plenty of sex films that are as insulting to women as the Spring Break movies, but there are also quite a few in which the women have equal or superior roles, something you don't see nearly as often in Hollywood product]"

Dr. Otto: "This is a serious issue relevant to the concept of community standards. The advice from NY & LA is generally not useful [though quite funny sometimes]. I'm in Virginia; among the more repressive states. While video stores have soft core sections, many of the store clerks are high school girls doing part time jobs. There is a

real embarrassment factor. Further, for some areas with broadly held religious right beliefs, one may reasonably assume an implicit, if unspoken, disapproval in making a porno rental choice. What is a patron to do in this land of "free choice?"

"My advice is: Next visit to the store, ask to speak to the manager. Frankly express to the manager your concerns about renting this material from underage clerks. Ask if the manager will handle the rental personally when you come in. The response will probably be yes, and once you have shared this personal concern with the manager you will find the sense of embarrassment greatly diminished.

"To the other posters: You should occasionally remember that while you enjoy unfettered access to the full range of legal porno material in you major urban centers, many of us out here routinely grapple with a real access problem. Ah! America the beautiful. Land of the free."

Brad Williams: "If they give you any smart-ass comments about your tastes in movies, find the manager/owner if that offends you, or don't go back. You could always dish it out yourself by saying "Does this mean you won't be coming over to watch this one with me, honey?" but then she might say something like "I'll watch this with you." And you'll be in a real awkward situation.....True Story from an experience a few years ago...

"Tell your date what to go rent while you wait in the car. If she agrees to this, you are shamed but at least you can watch porn while you try to develop some self-confidence.

"Tell the cashier: "I'm a college student doing some research and thought I'd better watch some of these things for informational purposes." This is tried on the net a lot, it might work for you.

"Try the psycho-approach to keep the cashier quiet. Something like "God told me to get "Girls Who Crave 18" Cocks" should work.

"Remember, no matter how special you are, it is highly unlikely that you're the first male customer to rent a porn movie from that particular female cashier.

"In the South, almost everybody will say "Hi," or "How's it going?" to complete strangers in every situation, but rarely in the porn stores I've been to. Usually about all I hear is some chuckles and laughs when people see the names to some of the titles. Then again, I have had people who recognized me from a previous visit (I'm 6'6" so I'm hard to miss) ask for recommendations which I don't mind giving.

"The last time I was renting a guy and his wife were browsing and she was picking out all the movies. She knew all the performers, and had obviously watched a ton of porn because she even knew which companies put out crap like Zane and Odyssey. She was also about 50-60 years old. Cool!"

A RAME poster: "I wouldn't live in a community that has strict rules regarding obscenity. If they are strict about that, then they are probably strict about a lot of other things. The best thing you can do is not live in such a community. By living in a strict community, you are condoning the restrictions they place on your freedom."

Anonymous poster: "Back in 1992, I was 18 and bored, so I decided to relieve my boredom by going to a nearby Stop And Go and buying a pack of pornos. I say "pack", because this store had a deal where you could get a bag of three mediocre trashy magazines (i.e. old issues of Velvet and obscure soft-core British mags) for about $6.50, which was good for my 18-year-old budget.

"When I walked into the store, it was late at night (maybe 1 a.m.), so the only people there were me, the clerk, and a security guard. I went over to the stack of porno mags and started to look around. The clerk told me that I had to be 18 to look, and I assured him that I was. I made my selection and took it to the counter, and the clerk asked me for some I.D. I showed him my driver's license.

"I was born in January of 1974. These events took place in April of 1992. Therefore, I was 18, right? The clerk didn't think so. He took one look at my driver's license and said "No, you're not 18." I insisted that I was.

He didn't believe me. I said that 92 minus 74 equals 18. He gave me a blank look. I asked him why he thought I wasn't 18. 'I'm 18, and I was born in 1973. So you can't be 18 yet.'

"I thought a second, then told him that he must not have had his birthday yet this year. 'You were born in the later part of the year, right?' When I asked him this he gave me a weird look, and said 'You could say that,' as though the only way I could have known that was by looking at his medical records. Some of you people might be thinking that this guy was stringing me along. As the rest of this story will show, he wasn't. He was just *seriously* dumb. I bet he didn't even know what the FAA was.

"Seeing his suspicious look, I tried a different approach, and told him to try adding 18 to 74. I even did it piecewise: 'Look. Ten years after 1974 is 1984, right? And eight years after that...' At this point the security guard was counting off the years on his fingers. I think he got to about 1982 before *he* got too confused and stopped. The clerk was seriously screwed up now, and decided to try a novel solution to this problem. He picked up the phone and CALLED ANOTHER STORE. Explaining the situation, he asked THEM whether or not I was 18. Stop And Go must have an Equal Intellectual Opportunity hiring program, because he was on that phone for a while, waiting for the people from the other store to determine whether or not I was 18.

"While the clerk was on the phone, someone else had bought gas, and he came into the store to pay. The clerk told this random guy that I was born in January of 1974, and asked HIM if I was old enough to buy pornos. The customer thought about it for about fifteen seconds, counting out the years and months, then said "Yeah, he's old enough. He can buy anything he wants!" The clerk still wasn't convinced, but now the security guard had figured it out, and he told the clerk that I should be 18.

"The clerk was *still* skeptical, as though this could have been some sort of huge conspiracy between me, the security guard, and this random customer who just walked into the store. Just as the first customer was leaving, a gorgeous woman walked into the store to buy a pack of cigarettes. I wanted to die right then. Here I was, standing at the counter with my bargain-basement 3-pack of Mayfair and god-knows-what-else, and right next to me was a woman who could easily have posed for one of those magazines. To make things even worse, the clerk pointed to me, said I was born in January of 1974, then asked HER if I was old enough to buy pornos.

"She didn't even try to figure it out. Without skipping a beat, she said 'I'll buy them for him.'

"I didn't let her. Not only was I too embarrassed to let her, but I felt that I was on a quest now. I had a moral imperative to exercise my God-given right to legally purchase pornography, and I wasn't going to give in to the clerk's claim by sneaking around the law. When I told her I wanted to buy them myself, the clerk finally caved in and let me get the magazines. Ever since then, I haven't been embarrassed by buying or renting any sort of porn." (RAME)

If you read only one newspaper, read the Wall Street Journal. It is superb. The 4-1-98 edition features a thoughtful opinion piece on porn. I quote excerpts below. Statements in brackets are my opinions.

Porn Again? An Industry Fantasizes About Respect

By HOLMAN W. JENKINS JR. from the Wall Street Journal

LOS ANGELES--It was with jaunty self-confidence that pornography's most presentable stars showed up in Sacramento last year to lobby against a proposed porn tax. Veteran sex actress Nina Hartley thrilled a press conference with her pro-family, pro-monogamy pitch. Porn was just the bedroom equivalent of "hamburger helper" for couples who don't have the patience for candlelight and lingerie after a stressful, dual-career day.

The tax proposal sank from sight, garnering not a single vote from any member of the tax committee.

"That's our little path to effective representation," says lawyer Jeffrey Douglas, a philosophical mastermind behind the campaign. "Be reasonable, be thoughtful, be professional." He predicts that within five years porn will be a minor power in state politics.

[LF says: I found this hilarious, "philosophical mastermind." It could be true, just seems like a big overstatement IMHO. It is very tempting for journalists to select what they think will be a provocative and sex angle and then run with it, even though it contradicts truth. I often think of zinging lines to throw into my writing, but I delete them after it strikes me that no matter how sexy they are, if they are not accurate they should not be in there. Truth is far messier than this sexy writing, IMHO.]

Could the sex fantasy industry's own eternal object of longing, true respectability, be hoving into view?

{People have been saying this for decades, and erratically it is coming true. But porn and its ilk will never achieve general respect, IMHO]

... From behind a blacked-over storefront in the unassuming suburb of Chatsworth, Tim Van Name delivers live sex shows over the Internet. In the next room, amid giggles and moans, porn star Bunny Blue and a male colleague supply interactive gratification to his on-line clientele, while he pulls in $100,000 a month.

City agencies have been over his operation with swabs and petri dishes, but found little to carp about. An informal truce, reached 20 years ago, still holds. As long as the pornmeisters eschew the seven deadly sins (bestiality, rape, you can guess the rest) that even LA juries have shown a willingness to repudiate, the local constables won't bust them randomly. It was the coming of prosecutorial predictability that made the industry safe for big-time investment.

[This truce was reached ten years ago with the California State Supreme Court's Freeman ruling]

A decade later, a vice cop could well and truly say that Southern California's "community standards" had become the nation's.

[Wrong. Many communities are overwhelmingly offended by porn and many are far more supportive than here in LA]

Gloria Leonard, a famous sex star herself and now president of the industry's trade group, touches upon an immutable reality in the advice she offers to aspiring starlets. "You really need to have your head screwed on straight," she says. "Because, once you've committed to having sex in front of a camera, you are preserved that way for life."

Mr. Douglas pitches the same line. The "myth of crossover" is dead. The girls coming into the industry nowadays, inspired by XXX-rated "role models" in those high-quality Vivid and VCA productions, want only to be porn stars. They don't want to be Hollywood actresses.

...Soon it was engulfed by an epidemic of starlet suicides. In 1994, the industry's 24-year-old superstar named "Savannah" (a k a Shannon Wilsey) blew her brains out after a car wreck spoiled her fantasy of a legitimate movie career.

Growls of public disapproval were already rising in the wake of another scandal. Traci Lords had the good fortune to be spanked by the FBI just shy of her 18th birthday, but her producers were forced to withdraw millions of dollars worth of the underage star's videos. Ms. Lords, reclothing herself as a victim, went on to land guest shots on "Melrose Place," recording contracts and an upcoming role on NBC's "Profiler." Her former colleagues ended up under criminal indictment.

These misfortunes were instructive. Both official Hollywood and the porn industry are staffed disproportionately by people dragging around the debris of their troubled childhoods; there is still much under-the-table fraternization. But it's not just the uncertain state of obscenity law that stops a lucrative sideshow from being swallowed up by the Sonys, Time Warners and MCAs. If the porn folks learned anything, it was that pariah status was a necessary accouterment to tolerance.

Even Mr. Douglas, their lawyer, muses aloud about a "rare constellation of personal characteristics" that allows his clients to have sex in public.

In porn, the male stars serve as a props, while the females have the marquee value and make all the money. Porno's sociology resembles the female-dominated society of the bonobo ape, for whom near-continuous, public sex has evolved as a solvent to defuse male aggression. Not for nothing are its elder statesmen all women, who espouse sex as the solution to all of life's problems.

Ms. Blue, the Internet entertainer, is undeniably vivacious, and yet her performance delivers all the erotic charge of a bologna sandwich. It is served up in the same spirit of professional courtesy and cheerful solicitude for customer satisfaction that you might expect from a good deli counter. This is not sex as most of us understand it.

For most of us, sex remains an intensely private act, freighted with meaning and mystery. And it seems only fitting that most people should be constructed this way, given the importance of parental solidarity, the microbial hazards of sex, and the ease with which jealousy can undermine sociability. Oddly, the porn industry has blossomed precisely because the product no longer has to be viewed in steamy movie theaters in the company of raincoated men, but can be enjoyed in the privacy of the home.

The meaning of it all? In our electronic age, you may not be able to stop anyone from turning his or her "constellation of characteristics" into a marketable opportunity. But there's still a downward limit on the pervertibility of the rest of us.

So take heart: The difference between the people who make porn and those who consume it won't go away just because porn has become more plentiful.

............................

Frank Rich picks up on the theme of stigma in his 5/20/01 New York Times Sunday Magazine article:

Like his wife, Raven is increasingly recognized by strangers -- largely because "Behind the Scenes" documentaries about his movies appear on DVD's and on cable erotic networks, much like Backstory features on American Movie Classics. But Raven no longer stays in contact with his own family. And Steele's parents, she says, "don't totally know what I'm doing and don't ask. We don't lie, but they've never really been told."

The secrecy among porn people is so prevalent that it's a running, if bittersweet, gag in a made-for-the-Internet TV series called "The Money Shot" that Paul Fishbein of AVN is producing as a lark.

In a rather poignant episode titled "The Parents Show," one character dolefully concludes, "Nobody in this business tells their folks nothing."

Bryn Pryor, 33, is the director and a writer of "The Money Shot." He's an AVN staff member who arrived in the Valley after nine years in the theater, much of it children's theater, in Arizona. "The Money Shot" hits his friends where they live.

"Porn is legal now, but it has the mentality of other businesses, like prostitution and gambling, that started with organized-crime connections," he says. "People approach it as if they've done something wrong. If our customers project shame, than you must be doing something wrong. Everyone at AVN writes under a pseudonym. We have people here who don't want anyone to know their real name."

Variations on this theme were visible everywhere I went in the Valley. Receptionists at porn companies tend to answer the phone generically: "Production Company" or "Corporate Office."