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Tuesday, November 16th, 1999

Gossip

XXX writes: "Charley Sheen Jr used to get in trouble, before he became famous, because he'd swipe his dad's credit card and hire hookers on it. And his dad would get mad. 'There's $7000 worth of hookers on my credit card and I'm wondering about this.' Charley has blow-up dolls. He doesn't have kids because the things he was f---ing didn't have any internal organs."

Epoch Changes Again

Third party credit card processor Epoch, used by many porn websites, has changed its name again.

Jabbar writes: Want something to go after? I just got this in my inbox from epoch this is the 4th time they changed their name whats more is nobodys ever heard of the new company they merged with digging up some dirt on this one would definitely get you some clicks my friend.

Marina Del Rey, CA - November 15, 1999 - Paycom Billing Services, Inc. (formerly known as Epoch Application Systems, Inc.) announced today a merger with California based Solutions America, Inc. The three-year old Paycom, which provides on-line transaction processing services, check verification, web design and customer service for E-commerce companies, will become the foundation of Solutions' future development of its Internet services, products and information.

Jason Rhino writes on www.condomproject.com: "Luke F-rd: The Epoch merger was not a surprise, we were informed it was happening nearly two months ago, and it is happening for good reasons such as big injections of venture capital! Please take your rumor-stirring and religious/morality views somewhere else."

Net Gossip

Insane writes: Luke, Uh ...... I really don't have anything really good for you along the lines of gossip about the Adult Net. Adult Net porners are basically boring hard working people, one of the reasons that a guy working out of his basement on a 486 makes more money than 98% of those working in the adult vid biz.

Cavecreek, one of the biggest hosting companies in the world, has long been accused of being a child porner friendly web host. Ron Caldwell who owns Cavecreek has always denied it but his answers have never satisified most of the web porners. One day he's working with the FBI and the kiddy sites are there as part of some kind of sting, the next day he defends himself and his company with the argument that a webhost cannot get into the act of censoring any content without opening itself up to big liability problems. It seems as if they're finally getting the message that hosting kiddy sites is bad for business as several of the sites were shut down this week.

I enjoy reading your site, it's like a dysfunctional web version of Peanuts or maybe Seinfeld. I finally took a look at your photo section and saw your NJG......... you really should tell this woman that there isn't a chance in hell of you ever falling in love with her. Luke you are shallower than most men when it comes to women, you want a porn hottie or a civilian that looks like a porn star. I don't want to hurt NJG's feelings but she looks exactly her age ...... dressing younger and being short doesn't mean you look younger it means you look like a short XX year old wearing Doc Martens, sorry : )

[A depressed NJG phoned me this afternoon and I promised to say that she looks younger and cuter than her age. Folks, it is true. NJG looks younger and cuter than her age. Judge for yourself. Image:njg]

Insane writes: Luke this Craig guy who's starting up this new porn mag is the sole sponsor of your site? How many unique hits a day does l-keford.com get? To me your site attracts some very serious porn fans, the kind who spend lots of cash on and off the Net on porn. How much does Craig pay a month for his exclusive sponsorship of l-keford.com? You probably should be able to make more money using several different sponsors with your clientele. His magazine is doomed, it's probably the hardest business in the world to crack especially at a time when porn fans are all spanking it online. I don't care how hip how edgy how different he thinks it is it's going nowhere. Hope he's got a lot of Daddy's money to piss away trying to be the Hefner for Generation X.

The rule of thumb is that an adult webmaster should be able to make between 2 and 3 cents per unique visitor so at 3 cents per visitor.... but your site's traffic might be more valuable at 4 cents a visitor.... Damn all Craig is getting for his 42 thousand is that link to an empty site with an email form? He must be loaded. Since alot of your traffic are people in the adult film business, with more and more film companies and talent getting on the Net you should or could probably make some good money taking advertising for web services like webmaster programs (ie cybererotica etc), web design firms, content providers etc Ever done any research on your readership? Have they ever signed up to a paysite? How many? What niches/fetishes are they into? Who's their favorite porn stars? I was just thinking that if your celebrity status continues to grow a Luke F-rd paysite might be a success, LukesWorld.com :) There really are no paysites that cater to the real porn fan, just fan sites for the porn girls and now Vivid. You would of course keep the l-keford.com site free but inside a members site you could have the regular s--- every other paysite has but you could also have more in depth coverage of the adult film scene, live interview/chats with current and past porn queens etc

Somebody asked whatever happened to Alexandra Quinn? You can find her doing the webcam slut thing working for a company called Pornication. You can access her cam feed for free on hundreds of websites that carry Pornications feeds. I'm jealous you're getting to meet Keisha. I cut out renting porn videos in the early 90s and am only getting up to speed on the current scene through your site and the vids I see on a service called Dreamzotic that I run on my paysites. They seem to have a deal with SinCity video to stream their product on the web. Most of the video streams so far licensed for the Net have been old crapola from the 80s cut up in little 3 minute pieces. Make sure to bring your digital camera when you meet Keisha, she was very voluptuous, hope Father Time has been nicer to her than most porn starlets. I saw some Marilyn Chambers photos on your site............... OOOFAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!! keep on ramblin Luke

XXX writes: "Kudos to Insane for hitting the nail on the head! Your Boss Guy, Vasiloff, is going to be wiping his ass with unpurchased back issues of XXXGen magazine from here 'til kingdom come because the stands are cruel, baby, as I and various other distributors are well aware. AVN's "Sexpose" flopped after 2 issues and it seems that Flynt is launching and then aborting a new magazine every frigging month. People (read:men) buy adult mags to flog their meat, and they get more and better product on-line these days. A new mag cannot survive without literally millions in advertising dollars behind it and even then there's no guarantee of success. I've been in the business for countless years now, and the last thing I hear the consumer scrambling for is a magazine about the adult business that's "cool ... edgy ... hip ... MAXIM meets the adult industry." Gimme a break."

Webspy writes Luke: "This guy Insane or whoever it is is a whacko!!! He is obviously trying to stir up s---. Vasiloff has his s--- together and the plan is simple. I have the dirt Luke - the real dirt - this guy is lame."

Las Vegas Murder Trial

LAS VEGAS (AP) - It's stuff for the plot of the best pulp fiction. An heir of the du Pont fortune kindles an affair with a former prostitute. They go to Las Vegas so he can divorce his estranged wife, who is draining his share of the family fortune. His frustrated stepfather seeks out a ``small, two-bit ex-porn star'' to murder the prostitute.

Luke: The porn star's name is Diana Hironaga. She's 41. What was her stage name?

Mai Lin Hooking?

Far East writes on RAME: Recently found the former porn actress Mai Lin working as incall escort in the Bay Area. Exceptional service and exceedingly nice lady.

RBed: Oh, really? Walk a Mai Lin her shoes!

Marksdays writes: Woo, buddy. Always loved Mai Lin. A few of my favorite films would include: "Serena vs. Mai Lin" (1982), very good Mai vehicle and Serena was never chopped liver. Good flick; "All the Way In (1984) one of her absolute best; "Between Lovers" (1983); and "Oriental Lesbian Favorites" (1984); oh, and you should check out a very nasty little film, "Best Little Whorehouse in San Francisco" (1984) and anything else she's in.

One of my favorite Mai Lin stories took place at the Playboy Mansion, in Los Angeles, in the late 1970s or early 1980s. Mai took on a couple of dozen guys without ever standing-up or getting out of the water. When she did, a huge, and I mean huge cum-ball plopped out into the water and just floated there. Everyone cracked including Mai who laughed and went to shower. Not surprised that you report that she's so nice, she's had that reputation as long as she's been around. A very great lady. Just out of curiosity, what's the going rate for an escort evening with Mai. Just out of curiosity, yeah, right.

Axl Braun Update

Axl Braun writes: Hey, Luke wassup? I'm fine, I'm working on my new feature, "G-Spot Confidential", which should be finished in a few weeks. I also made peace with my father, Lasse Braun, after more than 2 years. He just finished a very interesting book, an historical-erotic-thriller called "Lady Caligula", which I would be happy to send you (if I had your mailing address). My ego stumbles every time I check your site and realize that my bio is not in the list...but then again people like JJ Micheals are there, so maybe it's a good thing....anyway, if you want I can send you one that just appeared in an English magazine. Hope everything is going good with you, let me know when you want to eat some serious risotto, ok?

Metro Update

Texsays writes on Yahoo: "The Office is moving to the west coast. They are few miles from me and I plan to go check the new place out soon. It's been over 2 weeks since the SEC hearing and the wait is 2 weeks after a hearing until the Metro legal staff can start pressing for a yes or no decision from the SEC. The legal staff seems confident they will be up and ticking again soon(my fingers are crossed), it's just the waiting for the SEC to act that is killing me. I think they are taking their sweet time due to the fact of content Metro is involved in."

Kendra Jade Strikes Back

Porn star Kendra Jade has been banned for months from Porn Star Trading for calling Roxanne Hall a "cunt." Monday night, she wrote this open letter to the folks at PST, upping the temperature in this bitter controversy that threatens to engulf the entire porn and internet words:

First of all...i would like to make one thing clear: The only reasoni am even wasting my time with this response is because ...well...I am bored.

First things first: I WILL NEVER SAY I AM SORRY>I have NOTHING to be sorry for! I have seen many people say and do worse things than say f--- this room.or call someone a cunt. I would like to say thank you to jimmy D and jim Gunn for their defense of "doing the right thing" because they are fair , level headed people who did not take my side, but knew the REAL reasons behind my banning. and is me being BANNED supposed to hurt my feelings?or affect my life in some major way? so a group of the same couple of people, obsessed with nothing else in life but porn , not wanting me in a f---ing chat room with them is supposed to be some sort of punishment???!! LOL. you are too much!!!

And the rest of you YOU ARE DEMENTED. HYPOCRITS. In one breath,you like me ,some of you even tell me that you feel i am treated very unfairly and that you feel badly.Yet not one of you speak up. no wonder i said f--- THE ROOM IN THE FIRST PLACE.and now you say apologize???!!! f--- YOU.f--- YOU .f--- YOU. i seem to recall a few of you sending me things, bitchy letters about why your boyfriend was lying to or cheating on you and you believed him , letters from your friends telling me to stay away from your man....Others of you ,who sent me disturbing poems or pictures of slashed wrists.Others of you with nothing more on your mind than the possibility of actually talking to a pornstar in a chatroom,hoping maybe to bang a few.some of you who spent hours after hours discussing one pornstar (can we say OBSESSSIVE??) , some whom i have actually spent time with and may have nightmares of for the rest of my life.

AND this is the room i am banned from???hmmm...i sure am dissapointed.I am truly , truly traumatized.im not sure i can go on...How i will surely miss playing games such as scrambling pornstars names and guessing them for hours.that takes sooo much skill. LOL The funny thing is that somewhere in the midst of all this, i actually liked a few of you...however the only people i see with balls are the ones who would gladly say to my face what they say behind my back.I invite ANY of you to do so. Jimmy D ...you know me too well.

They cant handle it b/c i defend myself and tell them to f--- off when i think they are wrong. Yes i was banned also b/c i said f--- you to pst b/c i realized how f---ed up i wsa treated, not b/c i have a pornstar ego.i simply expect people to have some respect when talking with me..like most people do.

mike...trailer trash?is that the best you've got? you did not seem to feel that way when you were begging me to hang out with you and kelly at ecvs? and yeah, you did snd the pix of heather around.thats why there a several people who have them.like i said, hope u have id on file.

hmmm...this from people who spend their time trying to bash a 22 year old girl.how old are you again mike south? oh and you werent trying to f--- kelly? LOL how bout she would never cuz you look and talk like a f---ing piece of trailer trash yourself. and yes, i am the evil spawn. where do u think i got it from?

Fred writes: It wasn't exactly clear to me what was going on between Kendra and the other people in the chat room. Were folks sending her letters/e-mails with wierd stuff (poems, pictures of slashed wrists) in it? Where did they get her address? Exactly what was going on? I think there may be an interesting story here--I bet numerous stars receive odd stuff from folks from time to time. I bet it would be interesting (maybe even a hoot) to put down a few coherent paragraphs. That might help to flesh out more about the whirling, twirling life of a porn star.

On another note, you should make sure that when njg actually goes out with Decker, you or she should write synopsis of the date for l-keford.com--sort of like a web-based version of Love Connection. You can play the role of Chuck Woolery (sp?). BTW, from what I recall of her phone call, this will probably be the first Jewish guy that njg dated. If I recall correctly, fixing njg and Decker up is a Mitzvah. Luke, you're a good boy.

Roscoe Jones writes:

Dear Mr. Ford:

Might I suggest a change to the content of your web site that would at once make it both more readable and informative? Stop providing blow-by-blow descriptions of the utterly inconsequential pissing matches between people named "Brandy", "Kendra" and after points of the compass. It is unreadable and quite dull. Why not ask these people to contribute original short essays on some topic of broader interest than whether or not they are permitted to participate in something known as "PST". This is as entertaining as listening to the millionaire Howard Stern berate his unpaid interns. I know that you are always on the lookout for cheap content, but enough is enough! Please return to the disemenation of scurrilous rumors about the players and played of your business. And a further suggestion - go easy on the NJG material. I suspect that this could end badly.

Luke: Thanks, good points, perhaps you could contribute an essay on your relationships with porn and Judaism? How about gracing us with an essay about your participation in porn's glory days, the 1970s, and your work with Gloria Leonard in Misty Beethoven?

Roscoe: Dear Mr. Ford: I would love to contribute essays along the lines that you have suggested, and would, but for the following facts: 1. I am Lutheran, not Jewish. 2. I am 12 years old, and my parents do not approve.

Madison Fan from PST writes: "id like to respond to comments made by "Fred" regarding this kendra jade event and in particular the subject of the "poems, pictures of slashed wrists". First of all, im the one that sent that stuff to kendra, they were not sent out of the blue, they were sent during a conversation we were having to an email address that kendra gave to me, basically she wanted to see the pix and i sent them to her. kendra and i were having, what i then thought, was a private conversation in which we were sharing personal things with each other, during this conversation it came up that something we had in common was bloodletting, i.e. cutting ourselves to deal with emotional pain or other problems. i was under the impression that this was a private and personal conversation but seeing how she wrote about it in her rant, in a context that made it look like some strange obsessed fan was mailing her stuff, evidenced by freds comments, i was mistaken. i always liked kendra and thought of her as a friend in which i cared very much about but seeing how she thought to INclude me instead of EXclude me in her negative comments about PsT channel and the people within, i now know i was wrong about her, sadly."

Mike South writes: OK Luke I did some checking. Kendras ban for bad mouthing Roxy was lifted a long time ago. Kendra was most recently banned from pst because she got in a huff and started shouting f--- all of you I am never coming back here. After she left we made sure that she doesn't return by banning her from the channel. Imagine Kendra saying things like that.....

As for Brandy, Brandy is disruptive and uses every opportunity possible to undermine the ops and the regulars in the channel. Brany has run 3 chats into the ground and we will NOT let her do that with PsT. Her problems are not just with Diablo, speaking for myself if Diablo lifted his ban I would place one. We have much better and nicer people in PsT than Brandy and Kendra. Personally I like Kendra just fine her mom and her step sisters are regulars in PsT. If Kendra petitions Ed and gets the ban lifted she would be expected to behave while in channel, the rules for pornstars are the same as the rules for everyone else in pst. We welcome all but do yourselves a favor and read the FAQ so that you do not end up in trouble.

BrandyAlx1: In response to Mike South's comments, you need only look at the log of my chat with another Op that I sent you. What Mike is babbling about is stuff that went on before the last ban was lifted. I had a clean slate and maintained it as far as that chat is concerned, and the latest ban is not valid. And his claim about my running chats into the ground is founded on nothing but flame material told to him by other people. He wasn't even around! Mike doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground and my mere presence reminds of that. That's the only reason he would continually support a ban and I'm afraid that's not a valid reason according to the rules that he professes they all live by.

BA: Diablo, too, for that matter. In PsT, obviously, the men can call the girls cunts and stupid and whores, but the girls are only permitted to take it. They may not express opinions of their own whether or not they are based in truth or personal experience.

I noticed in your posting of further chat from PsT that Mike South called Kendra a cunt. Has he been banned for that yet? I'm sure he has his reasons..., but then I'm sure Kendra has her reasons for calling someone by that name as well... The more they talk the more they prove just how hypocritical they are and that this whole thing is nothing but an exercise of their control obsessions. Their sides of the arguments would be better served if they stopped talking. Know what I mean?

Kendra Jade writes: f--- YOU MIKE SOUTH. at least i did not spend all of ecvs trying to get in Kelly Jade's pants, nor did i take nude photos of an underage girl (Heather) and send them to all my friends on the net. I hope you have at least a fake id on that model release.

Mike denies this. Full details in the log below.

John Gotti from PST went to dinner last night with Rob Spallone and James DiGiorgio. "Real authentic NYC italian food for real authentic mobsters," says Gotti.

Darthwhack: Luke, I have unfortunatly had the pleasure of being around during most of this Kenda vs The World thing. I am quite firm in agreeing with a certain porner that the emotitional underage and unstable factor is what is dragging this thing out. As far as Brandy Alexandre goes, I have a feeling that she will NEVER be allowed back into PsT, and I am so happy she had to step on up and share her feelings on this subject.

Tut tut, dear Kendra. Remember, WE ARE THE HARDCORE FANS. Never underestimate the power of a computer geek.

Kendra writes to Madison Fan: "I apologize for including you in my rant.I did not say your name.you did.and i apologize that it came off the way you felt it did.I liked you also , until i read the posts on lukes site where, not ONCE did you have a nice word about me. Except my being "interesting". Or you having "no opinion" i guess what i am getting at is that you seemed to be claiming to me that you cared on one hand, and on the next while around your pst friends, claiming you had NO opinion.

"Well, i am sorry but when i care about someone who is being trashed without the opportunity to defend themselves..I personally would take it on myself to stick up for them. And my only point in mentioning our discussion or those pix, is because i was trying to show that people in pst are not as "above me" as they claim to be. at least i am adult enough to apologize to you publicly and if you dont accept thats fine, but i never meant any harm to you. it was very thoughtless of me.And i guess when i feel i am being attacked..i just attack back without second thoughts. i am a lousy friend and a horrible person."

Brandy Alexandre writes: Per Mastrick's Suggestion... I'm positive this will have no effect because the "I hate Brandy" club has taken on a life of its own and my alleged wrongs have increased exponentially within it without my participation.

Mike South says that I am and have always been disruptive in PsT. This is untrue. Knowing full well that my every movement is deeply scrutinized, I have always made an effort to conduct myself not only as others do, but beyond reproach. IF I have ever been abusive to anyone it was in response to someone else initiation of abuse. I recall quite clearly several incidents where "Causing Trouble" tried desperately to start a flame war in the channel and I simply refused to participate.

Not only was my behavior commendable in light of such unprovoked personal attacks, Causing Trouble's behavior was not given warning or even questioned. This occurred with a number of regular participants to which a blind eye was turned. On the other hand, if I made the slightest comment with an opinion in the opposition to someone else's, I was berated by others, such as Mike South, adamjm, Diablo, et al, who never were expected to explain their behavior.

In recent days there has been discussion about a ban being valid because Kendra Jade called someone a cunt. Such name-calling is not allowed, you said, and so that was a good reason for the ban. That sounds like just a good excuse, because in the aftermath, Mike South called Kendra cunt in channel and Diablo called me one as well. These are obviously not rules, they are only acceptable reasons for when someone, for perhaps entirely different reasons that cannot be defined, wants someone out.

Surely you all have seen my chat with Mastrick wherein I question why ops don't remove bans made for invalid reasons. The overall impression I got from what he said and what he didn't say implies You are not organized, top-heavy in ops, and care more about not stepping on anyone else's personal power trip than about the fair and even application of some fluid rules regarding conduct.

All Masterick cares about is the girls. All Mike is pissed about is that I don't let him put me down. Speaking of Mike, his most vocal complaint in the chat arena is that I once banned Luke F-rd from a chat before he even said a word. My reason was that he logs the chats and posts them on his web site. This activity bothers people and they cannot freely and comfortably chat knowing that what should just be "coffee shop banter" may become world-read gossip. His mere presence was disruptive.

Well, Mike said that was total bulls--- and you would think that this opinion would mean that no one is banned from one of HIS chats just because one or two other people are uncomfortable with their being there. But in the end, that is the only reason I can see for my latest ban from PsT.

As I pointed out, while I may have been banned in the past for my behavior in response to personal attacks (again please note the attackers were never likewise punished) that ban was lifted. I had been chatting and getting along fine with everyone, even past launchers of personal attacks, who admitted that I was as bad as they had been told (note: these were people who I had never spoken to before, did not know, and were only operating what others told them).

Then Bianca Trump returned from one of her excursions, arrived in chat, and before I said a single word (and wouldn't have said anything to her even though she MANY TIMES launched into vulgar tirades, calling names worse than Kendra could ever do, without warning or banning). A heinous miscarriage of justice and poke in the free speech eye, according to Mike South.

Diablo is a keeper of logs. He always has a chat log handy to use against someone at any given moment. He would have all the evidence you need to prove or disprove that I have been any more or less disruptive, abusive, or obnoxious than any of the ops or other chat participants. Not only do I believe my ban is invalid according to the smokey rules, I think it should be lifted, the rules defined, and all ops made to abide by them and given the authority to personally remove a ban that is not within the parameters laid out to them. Otherwise, all you have is a bunch of control-freak egotists and nothing good can ever be said about chatting in PsT.

What? You don't want so much regulation? From what I've been reading there already IS suppose to be a lot of regulation. Just not in the right place. You cannot say on one hand you have guidelines and other the other say you would never mess with another ops ban. There's either a reason or this is not. Depending on the "offense" there should be limits to the length of the bans. While Mike may bitch and moan that he doesn't ever want me to be able to come in PsT again, at least in the chats I've "run into the ground" (more accomplished by the nuke attack levied against people who didn't likewise vacate the channels) every week you started with a clean slate. Even Luke F-rd was eventually permitted.

Death Looms For Porners

Watch out Kerri Downs, Chessie Moore, XXX, and ladies and gentlemen of porn: "Those who have sexual relations with animal shall surely die." Exodus 22:19

Sergio: Big f---ing deal. Every LIVING THING will surely die! That's not prophetic at all!

Watch out Luke F-rd: "Any man who lies with another man shall be condemned.. for it is an abomination against God." Leviticus 12:22

Mike South: "Luke that same passage tells of the sins of wearing clothes made of mixed materials (fibers) and eating rare meat. Sounds like to me that all the worlds baptists are condemmed to hell if sitting in a fastfood joint and eating a hamburger while wearing polyester is twice the sin of homosexuality."

Luke: I get a kick out of all the porn webmasters complaining about theft. If there is no God who says "Thou shalt not steal," there's nothing objectively wrong with theft. Porners reject the God of the Bible but want the benefits of its morality when it suits them. The moral laws against theft should operate, but not the ones regarding modesty and the sanctity of sex. Without a transcendent God, morality is just opinion, either personal or society.

Some societies thought that mass murder of other ethnic groups, like Jews, was fine. So society is no basis for defining right and wrong. Many of you complain about child porn? Those are nice feelings but only feelings without a transcendent source to attach to them, they are ephemeral. They are just your opinions. Some of you think child porn is wrong and others think it is fine. So who is to judge? No God = moral anarchy = we're all f---ed.

The full argument with Jim Gunn and other porners runs below in the PST transcript.

Jack Evil: "Luke Luke Luke, I don't need God to tell me that it's wrong to steal,kill people or to be involved with kiddie porn.I won't go up to someone and blow their brains out,rip them off or molest them because I sure as heck wouldn't want someone to do that to me or someone I love.Most right thinking decent people of whatever culture or faith who have empathy for their fellow human beings realize that society can't survive when people victimize others like that unchecked.That transcends whatever "God" you or anyone else believes in Luke."

Fred, the secular San Francisco Jewish Treat, writes: I spent a few years reading Will & Ariel Durant's 11 volume tome on the history of western civilization. Among other things, it pointed out that for many centuries, people argued and believed that there had to be a national religion, because that was the recipe for enforcing good values and good moral order. Thus, the King of France sanctioned the St. Bartholemew Day Massacre of Protestants in Catholic France, and Spain had its Spanish Inquisition. All in the name of enforcing the morality that comes from having everyone pay homage to one God. God was the "cosmic policeman"--the ultimate enforcer of good and evil. (Someone once gave Ivan the Terrible a report of what was going on in the Spanish inquisition, and Ivan the Terrible remarked that he thought the Spanish were utterly uncivilized.)

The notion that society needs a religion to promote good values is, of course, much older than that. If you read Plato's Republic you will find that Plato was in favor of religion and myths, regardless of whether the myths were false nonsense, because adherence to a religion promoted good conduct and good values.

And today, our own philosopher, Luke F-rd, tells us that God is the basis of law, and without God, there is no absolute morality, and right and wrong are meaningless constructs. I have bad news, Luke. You are wrong.

The morals we as a civilization hold today are not handed down by God. Rather, our morals evolved. Indeed, a fair analysis of biblical morality points to the fact that today, everyone, including people of faith, reject biblical morality.

Example 1. The bible sanctions slavery. The Old Testament makes it perfectly clear that people are allowed to have slaves. It is also perfectly clear that the early church believed that slavery was perfectly moral. (Religious leaders of the Confederacy pointed out, quite accurately, that slavery was perfectly consonant with the Bible.) However, western civilization rejected this biblical notion around the 18th and 19th century.

Example 2. The bible clearly sanctions polygamy, expecially the old testament. Western civilization has rejected this rule.

Example 3. The church (for you goyim out there) considered usury, the charging of interest for money lent, to be a sin. The church held this view for many centuries. Our morals have evolved, and the entire western world now rejects this old piece of church morality.

Example 4. The old testament sanctions capital punishment for many sins. Western civilization accepts capital punishment, if at all, only for murder (and in many countries, not even for that).

Example 5. Western civilization for the most part now rejects criminal punishment for homosexuality.

Example 6. The Bible sanctions monarchy. Modern political morality says that the only legitimate form of government is government by consent of the governed.

Under Luke F-rd's theory, we as a civilization, have been decaying. However, empirical fact demonstrates that Mr. Ford is incorrect. Indeed, the time when faith held its greatest sway over civilization (the dark ages) was a time of immorality, murder, torture, poverty, ignorance, etc. etc. It was a violent age--far more violent than our own.

The truth of the matter is that morals evolve, and that they are superior now to what they have been in the past. We are better off. Our civilization is better off. That morals and laws change with the times is neatly summed up in Jefferson's argument about why the nation should be able to amend its constitution--that laws are like clothes, that need to be tailored to suit the people's needs from one age to the next.

So in American civilization, we have peeled away biblical morality bit by bit.

Instead of stoning people for idolatry and breaking the commandment against having other gods, we now have a first amendment guaranteeing free religion.

Instead of permitting slavery, we now have a 13th amendment forbidding it.

Instead of having stoning, we have a fourth amendment forbidding cruel and unusual punishment.

Instead of stoning homosexuals to death, we have repealed the antisodomy laws. Nobody (probably not even Luke F-rd) advocates a return to the Biblical punishment for homosexuality.

Instead of having kings, we completely reject the Biblical form of government.

Instead of rendering unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's, our forefathers dumped Ceasar's tea into Boston Harbor and launched a revolution against Kings. We as a nation rejected this Biblical statement of morality, and launched ourselves on an infinitely morally superior path.

Morality evolves. There is no way of getting away from that fact.

Now, Mr. Ford seems somewhat wedded to a notion of absolute morality, i.e. without Biblical morality, how can there be absolute morality. This is obviously a wrong argument. That's like saying without Biblical physics, how can there be absolute laws of physics. Well, there are absolute laws of physics. Regardless of whether men know what those laws are, and regardless of whether they those laws are in a Bible, those absolute physical laws exist and hold sway.

I do not know whether there is an absolute, perfect order of morality. Perhaps there is. Perhaps there isn't. However, I do know this. If there is an absolute, perfect morality, our civilization's understanding of that morality is gradually improving, just like its understanding of physics is gradually improving. And we are better off for it. We are morally better off for having the courage and intelligence to change and adapt, rather than cling to something that is clearly inappropriate for our age.

Luke, without having the wisdom and courage to change that which should be changed, we're f---ed.

Porn Star Trading

Session Start: Tue Nov 16 05:22:39 1999

<l-keford> Houston, we have a problem. Kendra Jade has spoken out on the PST controversy. See l-keford.com immediately.

<LMack> It's the Logster himself :)

<MadisonFan-> this should be good

* MadisonFan- curses himself for actually going to look

<MadisonFan-> obsessed with

<MadisonFan-> nothing else in life but porn

* LMack guesses what it'll be like, and won't bother

<BobBlec> hey Luke

<l-keford> yo

<MadisonFan-> that comment is untrue and since shes been in here, she knows that porn is a pretty minor discussion in here

<BobBlec> hmmmmmm... "bitter controversy that threatens to engulf the entire porn and internet words" ???

<MadisonFan-> "Others of you ,who sent me disturbing poems or pictures of slashed wrists" thats me but i dont get her point

<LMack> Eeeewww

<LMack> You did that?

<MadisonFan-> hehe yeah, they were pix of me, not strangers, thats a little different

<l-keford> lol

* LMack guesses he'll have to check that page against his better judgement

<MadisonFan-> is her point that i shouldve stuck up for her?

<BobBlec> hmmmm...

<MadisonFan-> as for the saying to her face what we say behind her back, i privately told her everything ive said about her in channel, before she was banned

<LMack> That's quite a rant

<LMack> Not sure I understand half of what she's trying to say though :)

<BobBlec> LMack: yeah, she's a bit difficult to follow

<MadisonFan-> i dont understand either, maybe im stupid but im not sure if i should take offense

<LMack> Who told her to apologise, and for what?

<MadisonFan-> someone mentioned yesterday that maybe if kendra apologized she would be allowed back, it was prolly in a log

<l-keford> Am i handling this story in a responsible way or do you think i am hyping and sensationalizing it?

<MadisonFan-> good question, the fact is that i think very little people care, even those involved

<MadisonFan-> very little=very few

<BobBlec> Luke: is this story even worthy of note?

<l-keford> umm

<BobBlec> WELL??? ;)

<BobBlec> heheh

<MadisonFan-> i wonder how much of this is hype for OTHER purposes

<MadisonFan-> if luke would take the time to get into a dialogue here he might find more stuff out, instead we wait 20 minutes after a comment for luke to say :)

* LMack thinks Brandy might take note of the fact that making private logs available may not actually do her cause much good

<l-keford> i find the argument interesting, that is enough

<LMack> You find any conflict interesting

<l-keford> Most of what I write about appears to have little significance on the surface and i am usually hard pressed to validate it. But interesting stuff often comes out of conflict etc

* MadisonFan- hopes luke doesnt have ambition to join the "60 minutes" team

<MadisonFan-> its interesting in a soap opera type way but its very miniscule in the big picture

* BobBlec thinks that private logs should be flushed down the toilet after they're dumped ;)

<MadisonFan-> the question is whether this is a public or private forum

<MadisonFan-> its private in the sense that people can be removed from here...

<MadisonFan-> public in the sense that anyone can come in

<LMack> It's public alright

<MadisonFan-> i guess unless the channel goes "invitation only" its public

<BobBlec> Mad: it's public, but intended for the sole and exclusive use of the people who come here

<MadisonFan-> how long before brandy tries to get back into this?

<BobBlec> Mad: we want people to feel free to come here, but at the same time, we don't want them to feel that their every word that they speak in the channel is going to be posted for the entire world to see

<MadisonFan-> BobBlec, im sure this will be on lukes site too, do you have any plugs? where will you be playing this week?

<BobBlec> I should give that to Whack; he could put that into the FAQ

<l-keford> i don't quote people who do not want to be quoted

* MadisonFan- will be at the pittsburgh airport hyatt, friday 5:30 and 7:30 dinner shows, have a relaxing meal while you watch me make bats fly outta my ass

<BobBlec> Mad: I'll be playing outside one of the lounges in Vegas, just me, my guitar, and my little tin cup for donations

<LMack> You quoted Linda alright though

<MadisonFan-> luke- so you will eliminate what we say from the logs if we

<LMack> When she asked you not to put up what she said

<BobBlec> now let's deal with not quoting those who aren't worthy of being quoted, and we'll do fine ;)

<MadisonFan-> luke- thats not true because in the albo bulls---, he said do not put what i say on your site, yet it was there

<l-keford> I did not say that I will always not quote...just as a general rule, particularly here...

<MadisonFan-> hehe

<LMack> (l-keford): i don't quote people who do not want to be quoted

<MadisonFan-> for the record, you can quote me all you want, i dont care, im responsible for what i say

<LMack> no qualification in that sentence

<BobBlec> Luke: as far as quoting stuff from the channel, we consider it to be public, but intended mainly for the use of the people who come here; we want people to feel free to come to PsT, but at the same time, we don't want them to feel like their every word is going to be posted for the entire world to see.

<BobBlec> that's not an 'official' PsT policy... yet

<MadisonFan-> PS- thats NOT because were trying to hide anything

<MadisonFan-> anyone would be more comfortable chatting without the threat of "big brother" around

<BobBlec> Mad: exactly

<l-keford> ok chat freely,

<BobBlec> hehehe

<MadisonFan-> hehe

*** Disconnected

<l-keford> ms, what about kendra's comments that you did an underage girl?

<J0HNG0TTI> MikeSouth, im lookin for these pics kendra is talkin about lol

<MikeSouth> I didnt see those Luke if Kendra said that...well she is just showing what a cunt she really is

<MikeSouth> its what I would expect from trailer trash like kendra...you may quote me

<J0HNG0TTI> your making her sound hotter then she is mike!

<MikeSouth> as for heather jades pix....I have seen Heather Jades IDs but I have not released any of the shots I took of her nor do I plan to

<MikeSouth> HJ isnt emotionally stable enough to do porn

<MikeSouth> HJ BTW is 21

<Diablo^> heather isnt underage

<MikeSouth> according to her drivers license which is hers and is not a fake

<MikeSouth> AND Kelly will tell you I didnt try to get in her pants...jeez

<MadisonFan-> s---

<MikeSouth> so I expect my comments to be posted Luke

<MikeSouth> You know I dont shoot underage girls

*** `^-_-^` gives channel operator status to AutoM8tor

<MikeSouth> I dont even shoot emotionally underage adults

<MikeSouth> Luke that is exactly the behaviour that got Kendra banned

<l-keford> ok

<MikeSouth> and now I wont support lifting the ban...she is history here

<MikeSouth> Luke Im guessing njg didnt want you to post our little discussion re: democracy and america....

<MadisonFan-> Luke- im emailing you about comments made by "fred" on this whole kendra thing since its about me

<MikeSouth> so to all yer detractors there is proof that if someone asks you not to post what they say you wont

<MadisonFan-> proof to the contrary as well

<AutoM8tor> thanks vlad :)

<MikeSouth> hey Luke///without us yer site would have beeen boring of late :)

<`^-_-^`> no emotionally underage adults.... so I guess the MS/KJ shoot will never happen.

<MikeSouth> I got too many normal girls that want to shoot

<`^-_-^`> hehe

<MikeSouth> if any girl is "normal" hehehe

<Diablo1504> hehe none

<MikeSouth> maybe kelly will come here and apologize to me for her evil spawn :)

<MikeSouth> trying to f--- kelly...gimme a break

<AutoM8tor> hey Mike :)

<Darth_Whack> you know, for the record, I am going to say this again, since luke is here....this is JUST A f---ING IRC CHANNEL. I totally agree with Mike on the emotionally underage and unstable thing, cause if that wasn't the case, none of this s--- would have ever happened. Again, this is an IRC CHANNEL, not FORIEGN RELATIONS

<MikeSouth> hey Luke...I dont see that update yet

<MikeSouth> good point DW

<Darth_Whack> I mean s---, like I said before, this is like a f---ing screaming match between 8 year old kids over who has the better Pokemon cards

<Darth_Whack> it's f---ing LAME

<Darth_Whack> and of course, if Mr. Gay Wanna-Be-Jew Ford down there hadn't posted this s---, it never would have gotten out of control

<SweetJem> you've been screaming lots today Darth :)

<MikeSouth> heheheh....I got a good one

<Darth_Whack> at first, this whole Kendra thing was funny, now it is about as irritating as Hemroids

<MikeSouth> Oh Ed our father and leader

<MikeSouth> wherefor art thou

<Darth_Whack> hehehe

<MikeSouth> why hast thou forsaken us in our time of need

<MikeSouth> LOL

<Darth_Whack> hehehe

<skinutz> DW i nave good pokemon cards...hehehe

<skinutz> have

<MikeSouth> come back unto us Ed and show us the path

<MikeSouth> lead us not into temptaion to call Kendra a cunt

<MikeSouth> and Brandy even worse

<Darth_Whack> hehehehe

<MikeSouth> deliver us from this evil and put everything right

<MikeSouth> we ask in VideoEds name

<MikeSouth> can I get a AMEN!

*** osty has quit (Ping timeout)

<Darth_Whack> AMEN BROTHER MIKE

<Darth_Whack> and for ten thousand dollars you can see Jesus with it!

<Darth_Whack> "I enjoy reading your site, it's like a dysfunctional web version of Peanuts "

<Darth_Whack> well, whoever wrote that has us there

<Diablo1504> brandy is a cunt

<MikeSouth> all this while VideoEd is running whores and playing Blackjack and drinking beer in Bilouxi

<Delaney_Daniels> i took Tylenol cold and flu nightime, man that was like heroin..lol..I was out before i put the cup down

<MikeSouth> DD it dont cure ya...just makes ya sleep through it

<Delaney_Daniels> no kidding

<Delaney_Daniels> thankfully my husband was home to watch the girls, I didn't know it was gonna knock me out like that

<`^-_-^`> Coedine is best.

<MikeSouth> Ya I wont even try to work on that s---

<Delaney_Daniels> sudafed or ripped fuel I know is bad for guys to take when they're gonna work

<Delaney_Daniels> LOL I learned that when I gave it to hubby and broke his dick for 12 hours

<Delaney_Daniels> I get bronchitis alot, and thats what he gives me

<Delaney_Daniels> anything stronger puts me in a coma, I'm a medicine wuss

<`^-_-^`> l-keford, they sell Viagra cheap in Canada... You might want some if you wish to make up for lost time with your new orientation.

<MikeSouth> Hey Luke ...you gotta date with Matt Ramsey yet?

<MikeSouth> or earl slade

<MikeSouth> or frank towers

<MikeSouth> or Julian

<MikeSouth> are they calling youy wanting to "turn you out"

<Delaney_Daniels> after your tight lil virgin hiney

<`^-_-^`> DD, if you need a prescription filled, give it to Diablo. He can mule it across the Rio Grande next time he goes to the Chicago club.

<Delaney_Daniels> you could start doing the gossip on gay porn, and make some real money while your at it

<`^-_-^`> l-keford, does this mean your feud with the "gay mafia" is over?

<MikeSouth> you could change yer name to Duke Ford

<MikeSouth> thats more apporopo for a twink

<Delaney_Daniels> the 16th and i finally got my avn

* `^-_-^` wonders how many in the biz use Viagra? Some of them still shooting up their dicks?

<Darth_Whack> I had a dream I was buying a copy of AVN last night, complaining about not getting it in the mail, and when I got it, it was like this Readers Digest looking mag

<MikeSouth> yes vlad...AVN even did a story on it but they didnt name Randy

<XTacyVIRC> avn online print version rocks

<XTacyVIRC> theres some good articles in avn online

<Darth_Whack> hey luke, I am writing something for your site, it's called "What PsT Means To Me"

<Kippy> Kip Kinkel here

<`^-_-^`> Should we know Kip Kinkel? He that shooter?

<Darth_Whack> WarmProp, a kid who went into his school and shot a number of people

<Darth_Whack> he did, Mad, he killed his parents and then like two other people at his school I thought

<`^-_-^`> We should feel sorry for Kip, he is an orphan.

<Darth_Whack> no, I think they should tell him they are going to execute him by firing squad one day during a two week time span, but not tell him what day. Then, each day, blind fold him and take him outside, make it SOUND like they are going to shoot him, but not really do it until the 15th day

<`^-_-^`> When I was in high school lo these past 19 years ago, worse problems we had were kids smoking cigarettes in the bathroom and some one bringing a pocket knife to school. Now it is a war zone.

<adamjm23> don't everyone call me an asshole all at once but i don't think peeps are being completely honest with kendra on why she's banned

<Darth_Whack> In fact, I remember when the topic was something like <kendrajade> f--- THIS PLACE FOREVER and someone said "Don't worry, she says that and then is back that afternoon

<MadisonFan> but after kendra commenting on me on lukes site, she can kiss my ass, no sympathy from me

<xxxgen> Yes I have - I am not aware of your dealing but again as I have said many many times - she has been professional, courteous and outgoing - she has proven herself to be one of the best I have dealt with

<Darth_Whack> Perhaps Craig, but you are dealing with her on a Professional level, and this is more of a personal level

<Darth_Whack> and that is one Whack's opinion

<adamjm23> i can forgive someone telling me to f--- off or calling me an asshole, i won't ever let someone i've banned for being in a pedo or rape channel back in

<xxxgen> I spent the day with a friend who was just released from prison after 21 years. He was WRONGLY convicted of murder.

<xxxgen> extreme analogy? you guys are jumping all over the place - Kendra expressed an opinion - she should not be banned - are my opinions gonna get me banned? C'mon... we are supposed to be adults here

<MikeSouth> WTF is up with avn they refer to the website for complete reviews

<MikeSouth> but theres no f---ing reviews on the website that I can find

<Darth_Whack> hehehe

<adamjm23> i can't begin to count how many times people in here called her a bitch or cunt before her rant on luke's site today

<adamjm23> and who welcomed luke here with open arms mike?

<xxxgen> and how much can we believe Luke's post?

<MikeSouth> when someone accusses me of being involved in child pornography I take that very seriously especially when the accusser KNOWS the girl I shot is 21

<xxxgen> Mike: yeah I saw that - that was pretty s---ty

<MikeSouth> I supported lifting KJ ban until I read her s--- on l-keford.com

<l-keford> craig, who was your friend wrongly convicted of murder?

<adamjm23> as your lawyer i'd advise you not to answer that craig

<xxxgen> Gary Comeau - listen to the Steve Earle song, "Justice in Ontario"

<xxxgen> Gary was convicted along with 7 other members of the Satan's Choice Motorcytcle Club for conspiracy to commit murder - they were all the victims of a police conspiracy - Gary spent 21 years in jail for a crime he did not commit - we are working on the screenplay now!

<Bungle> Hi, everyone. I saw this chat group mentioned on Luke F-rd's site so I thought I'd come check it out. Thanks for having me.

<Mastrick> Kinda like Brandy - I've nothing against Brandy but folks are always telling me about negative experiences they've had with her

<Mastrick> That's gotta be a tough way to live - people always sayin' negative things about you or flipping you off in public. You see pics of people flipping birds on Luke's site hehehe

<VideoEd> i hope you guys realize that this new debate never would have happened if some of the ops in the channel would have done as they were supposed and enforce the ban earlier in the week rather than allowing her in and someone actually giving her a +v

<Sinatra153> I think you have too much fun making her eat her words though

<xxxgen> and yet you allow Luke F-rd?

<VideoEd> i havent created a monster, i just mainly banned someone for being out of line and expressing no interest in this channel

<Sinatra153> luke doesn't say much in here though

<VideoEd> i have never heard Luke F-rd cut down this channel

<VideoEd> if luke say "f--- this channel" then he will be banned as well

<MikeSouth> Luke has not slandered anyone here

<xxxgen> C'mon Ed - you know Kendra has an interest here - she was just pissed off

<MikeSouth> if anyone requests that Luke not print their statements he doesnt

<Darth_Whack> l-keford, you may have enough material after this to write another book

<MikeSouth> I think Luke abides by the rules here and I for one welcome him

<J0HNG0TTI> i told him once not to and he did

<WarmProp> i don't think luke running logs of this channel on his site is a good thing.

<Sinatra153> why not?

<xxxgen> It gets PST attention

<MikeSouth> If Luke is NOT abiding by the rules bring this to the attention of the ops

<xxxgen> what's wrong with that?

<Darth_Whack> with all due respect, the basis of the converstation is Kendra or No Kenra...

<VideoEd> I will not even listen to "Why Kendra belongs in PST"

<MikeSouth> WP I dont think it is a bad thing

<`^-_-^`> Luke does edit them heavily :) He left out all the fun I had with Coedine over the weekend.

<Stick153> Luke doesn't even talk, how could he be breaking any rules?

<Mastrick> My attitude is this: Kendra, Brandy, or anybody else is welcome to appeal their bans to alt.binaries.nospam.pst.d. I will listen to anybody's request to have their ban lifted; if they make their case successfully I might even argue their case on their behalf

<Mastrick> This channel is essentially an aggregation of friends. If people don't want to come here and observe our decorum, they are welcome to start competing ventures

<xxxgen> shouldn;t it Darth?? Is this not a fan's forum? Do not the fans want to see the stars in the room?

<Darth_Whack> Craig, this is a fan forum, however, that doesnt mean any pornstar who wants to can walk in and flop their weight around and get away with it

<JimGunn> Ed, my input on your site..do you think it makes as much sense anymore to emphasize the wod "trading" so much "the official homeof the pornstar traders" since many of us aren;t doing that and I'll bet a lot won't get it at all.

<JimGunn> Maybe gear it more towards intelligent porn discussion

<VideoEd> yeah the newsgroups promote that alot

<JimGunn> Keep the url but subtutle it soemthing more generalized.

<Chizog> Jim: that sounds funny "intelligent porn dicussion"

<xxxgen> JimGunn: Maybe gear it more towards intelligent porn discussion - lol

<Sinatra153> the copyright stuff won't go anywhere for a while..it's too hard to legislate the internet right now

<xxxgen> XTacyAVS: Mike Albo kicked Kendra Jade out of the LFP building for being Luke's friend - taken directly from Luke's site

<JimGunn> If I was Suze or Alsscan (or even Jim Gunn with his new teen cheerleader stuff, he he) i'd be pissed some of "you guys" were trading my images all over the place.

<XTacyAVS> Suze is the most traded of all photogs

<VideoEd> suze has also become a multi millionaire by people trading her pics

<XTacyAVS> its stealing, pure and simple

<XTacyAVS> "so and so has become rich from people trading their pics"

<VideoEd> i am not saying its right, i am just saying its been financially beneficial for her

<`^-_-^`> We do not promote trading of illegal stuff... all trades are conducted privately and are not within the jurisdiction or control of PsT.

<Sinatra153> only thing I think should be monitored or stopped on the internet is child porn and snuff things,

<XTacyAVS> if you were the person who shot the pics wouldn't you be pissed if others were profiting off it and you were not?

<XTacyAVS> dilluting the exclusivity of you selling them

<Sinatra153> not really..I would find more managible ways to make my money

<`^-_-^`> We promote fandom and friendship.

<VideoEd> i dont trade/post/profit from anything of suze's

<JimGunn> She may have made hersef twice as many millions if she wasnlt getting ripped off on a grand scale.

<XTacyAVS> fandom and friendship is all well and good as long as you're not dilluting someone elses product

<Sinatra153> on the other hand if everyone was getting free pics of her, there is a very good chance noone would have ever heard of her

<JimGunn> I read a couple lawsuits going on in AVN Online sopecificaly mentioning her and Color Climax I think. Others will follow.

<XTacyAVS> i think some people don't understand that being a fan should be having respect for their stars copyright

<JimGunn> Read the AVN Online article about her amnesty program and pics fo clicks deal its a good solution actually to benefit eveyrone

<Sinatra153> maybe not in court, but she should take into consideration, that if she does sue for copywrite...is anyone gonna pay for her pics, when they use to get them for free

<adamjm23> just for the record luke is a no talent hack

<adamjm23> get a f---ing life

<Sinatra153> Free exposure on the internet lead to $$ on the other end through movies and dancing

<JimGunn> I still occasionally see small sites with that bulls--- cop out discliamer "Our images are collected from public domain newsgroups. If you are a copyright owner, please alert us and we will delete this downloaded pics if you can prove you own the copyright etc."

<JimGunn> If you have been sealing froma grocery store for two years every night and then they nstall secuity cameras, will that be your defense?

<Sinatra153> it doens't matter in court, but it does matter in the pocket book...in the end that's all that matter. Just don't cut off your nose to spite your face

<XTacyAVS> "i stole from that store so i could promote how great their TV sets are!"

<JimGunn> Sinatra that MAY or may not be so, but that is not for you to judge or to make excuses.

<Bungle> But the photos are her pay packet. I din't know that Suze Randall danced.

<JimGunn> You steal, you are in the wrong, no two ways about it.

<XTacyAVS> shouldn't she be in control of what she owns???

<Sinatra153> i didn't say the thief wasn't wronge...but in the long run it might help the person in the pics career

<JimGunn> You were enriching yourself and rationalizing your evil activity.

<Sinatra153> I just think one should take into consideration what effect it might have on their career if they were to stop people from owning their pics for free

<XTacyAVS> why shouldn't THEY decide if they want their pics freely available, why should some jackoff with a PC decide that?

<Sinatra153> ..we would find out who she was, and we be all excited about finding a movie with her in it

<JimGunn> Sinatra153, whether she goes broke when all the would be thives turn their back on her indignantly is irrelevant. How she handles her business is no ones concern but hers

<XTacyAVS> "It doesn't hurt anybody -- in fact it's free advertising."

<XTacyAVS> It's up to the owner to decide if they want the free ads or not. If they want them, they will be sure to contact you. Don't rationalize whether it hurts the owner or not, ask them. Usually that's not too hard to do. Time past, ClariNet published the very funny Dave Barry column to a large and appreciative Usenet audience for a fee, but some person didn't ask, and forwarded it to a mailing list, got caught, and the newspa

<JimGunn> A few big guys ike Suze or Color Climax and their big money lawyers will make the precedents for others to follow and the boig hosting co's will get invlolved refusing to host so many of the patantly illegal sites and soon it will be harder and harder for profesional theives to get away with it.

<Sinatra153> take Alyssa Milano's persuit to get her image off the internet...I could go right now, and pull up 100 pics of her off some hack pervert site..

<Sinatra153> only time will tell, and the thieves get busted they had it coming...I just don't see it happening

<InuYasha> okay, i'm pretty damn desperate here... so desperate i'm going to bug you guys for any site or freaking password you can give me! i need freakin porn or i'll die!

<l-keford> On what moral basis do you porners say stealing is wrong?

<InuYasha> i can find... but it's the same crap all the time

<JimGunn> That's what amazes me..Ask a mobster in NYC- at least he knows what he is doing is wrong and illegal. He just tries to get away with it anyway. Guys like you Sinatra actually think that it should be ok to steal.

<l-keford> God says stealing is wrong, but you don't accept God's moral authority, so morality is just personal opinion.

<InuYasha> i need something nice... not this cheap stuff

<Bungle> It's the most basic ethic on which western civilisation is based.

<XTacyAVS> good point Luke, but i'm talking about copyright in the broad sense, not just for porn

<JimGunn> INU give me your cc number and I will grant you access to my persinal porn collection.

<Sinatra153> I didn't say it was allright to steal...just hard to stop

<XTacyAVS> thats the moral authority that Luke uses to justify his site ;)

<l-keford> Western civilization is based on the Bible, Judaism and Christianity and ethical monotheism. porners reject the basis of morality, but want to appropriate it for their own interests at times.

<Bungle> I thought porners were in it to make some money.

<XTacyAVS> theft those not belong to just those who are spiritually tied

<Sinatra153> If there is no god..then who says stealing is wronge, theivery is just a way of expression

<l-keford> If God exists and is anything like the God of the Bible, then porn and theft are wrong. if there is no such god, then all is permitted.

<XTacyAVS> if someone is atheist, does he forgoe his rights to claim they are the victims of theft?

<JimGunn> US law says it is wrong

<Bungle> The society in which we all co exist says it's wrong. God or no.

<l-keford> the atheist forgoes any transcendent moral code,

<JimGunn> Luke all is not permitted we don't need a ridiculous bearded white man to tell us what is right and wrong

<l-keford> Some societies said it was ok to murder 6 million jews, so who cares about what society says. That is just a group's opinion.

<JimGunn> Regardless the laws of the nation are sufficient in this regard

<Sinatra153> he can claim all he wants but religion is set up for boundaries and guidlies...you feel free to step out of those boundaries to justify some things, but you're perfectly will to use them to your advantage when it suits you

<l-keford> There is no right or wrong without a transcendent source of moral authority. Other than God, morality is all opinion.

<`^-_-^`> so do we need Jesse Jackson to tell us what is right and wrong?

<J0HNG0TTI> l-keford: where are you reading this from?

<WarmProp> religion: for a person who can't really form his own opinions.

* XTacyAVS wonders if God will help him sue those who break his copyrights

<l-keford> :)

* XTacyAVS will have God represent him in all legal matters since he is the moral authority

<InuYasha> ...Luke took it straight out of a talkshow, my god! show some personal reflexion before i choke myself

<XTacyAVS> guess we need to throw out all judgements in all courts ever where God was legal counsel

<Sinatra153> you get mad when people use a god as there moral authority, but why should a thief accept your moral authority when you tell him not to steal you stuff

<XTacyAVS> where God was NOT legal counsel rather

<JimGunn> Siantra the LAW says staeling is worng i need not go deeper than that

<Bungle> That's bloody ridiculous.

<l-keford> so what jim, men made law. who cares if you can get away with it?

<Sinatra153> Luke just picked up on a bit of irony that I thought was funny...that's all

<XTacyAVS> hey i think you're morally corrupt so i'm gonna steal from you

<l-keford> no god = moral anarchy and we're all f---ed

<Bungle> How about I come to your place and take your teevee

<JimGunn> Rgardless of the deeper underpinnings of US law you are still breaking it, so you can';t philosophize your way out of this one.

<Bungle> You say, hey, that's mine.

<Sinatra153> if were all f---ed I'm gonna take pics of us and sell them on the net

<InuYasha> MY GOD! for a porno channel there sure are some brilliant minds in here

<XTacyAVS> Luke, if i think you're morally corrupt is it my duty to steal from you?

<Sinatra153> Robin Hood

<l-keford> it don't matter XT, it's just opinion

<l-keford> without G-d

<WarmProp> luke you shouldn't be confusing god and religion.

<JimGunn> Luke- then we are alll f---ed since there is obviously no god.

<Bungle> I say 'I do not subscribe to your moral code. I consider taking your teevee to be morally acceptable and shall do so'.

<l-keford> Then might makes right adolf

<Bungle> Having said that you must accept our difference inmorality and let me take your teevee?

<Sinatra153> Jim: even if there is no god, as longs as there is an allusion to a god then most people will stay in order

<l-keford> i would shoot you bungle

<JimGunn> There can be right and wrong in the absence of myths and faerie tales.

<XTacyAVS> what if i dont agree with your view of what is moral?

<l-keford> Yes Jim, but it is only opinion

<XTacyAVS> morality is opinion as well

<Sinatra153> Jim: who defines right and wronge then?

<l-keford> XT, it is all opinion without a higher code

<XTacyAVS> the higher code is ambiguous

<Sinatra153> in order to define right and wronge you need a comparison (religion)

<XTacyAVS> what if i dont believe in your religion?

<InuYasha> what if i don't believe in your values?

<JimGunn> I'd rather live in a society where reasonable people have made a long-term collective decision of what is right and wrong than one where primitive myths and fairy tales from millenia ago tell us what is right and wrong.

<Sinatra153> you still follow it because the majority faith prevails

<Sinatra153> who's to say the collective decision is right though

<XTacyAVS> and the majority believe that copyright should be protected ;)

<JimGunn> The law says so, regardless of this metaphysical argument

<Sinatra153> In Germany the collective decision was to kill jews..was that right?

<XTacyAVS> oh yeah killing jews and protecting ones copyright is the same thing

<Bungle> Hang on. I think we need a little perspective. Does anyone here think it's absolutely okay to steal?

<JimGunn> In Germany in the 1940's very little of the population was actually involved in the Holocuast.

<Sinatra153> who says a democracy is better then a dictatorship?

<JimGunn> Siantra the AMerican people say democarcy is better

*** niggalover (~java@ATLNB112-08.splitrock.net) has joined #!!!!!!pornstar-trading

<InuYasha> Stealing is wrong, not because someone else said so, but become it's unacceptable when it happens to us!

<niggalover> hey do yall like blacks

<niggalover> hello are yall going to answer me\

*** niggalover was kicked by `^-_-^` ( Bye bye lameass )

<JimGunn> For exampe Luke and Sinatra- "The Golden Rule"- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is self-obvious and reqires no fictional higher moral authority like an imaginary God to justify it.

<l-keford> That's just your opinion... But I do believe that that rule is written into the universe, that there is karma written in, but there is no rational overarching basis for it wihtout transcendence.

<JimGunn> Not only is it self-obvious but coperationlike that has proven effiicient by evoltuionists, computer scientists, game theorits.

<Sinatra153> I don't see why you say it's self obvious..it's seems more obvious to me that one should look out for himself

<JimGunn> Beacuse Sinatra by acting in thaty regard you tend to benefit yourself as well

<JimGunn> Look up "The Spanish Prisoners Dilemna"- Game theory; look up "The Behavor of Ants in a colony" etc

<`^-_-^`> Impatient, we need to take Luke upstairs blindfolded in the OG in middle of week and let him figure out what is what there.

<Bungle> All of this philosophing is very nice. But does anyone like getting stolen from? I'll hazard a guess to say no. So without implicating religion at all would it not seem reasonable that stealing became illegal because it simply does not feel nice when it happens to you?

<JimGunn> Sure Sinatra, but now that we are not swinging from trees anymore or cowering at Pharoah's feetm, how any one nowadays can buy into all that s--- is beyond me, especially since the religions are all mutaully exclusive by their own definitions thereby negating them all.

<Sinatra153> people are mutually exclusive by nature...people took a perfect thing (religion) and twisted it to suit there needs and desires

<JimGunn> You know even under a simplistic, animalistic amoral "might makes right" philosophy, stealing is dangerous. What's to stop me or Suze from hiring a p.i. or doinfg a little bit of net searching to find you and bash your head in with a rock?

<XTacyAVS> if you stole whatever was precious to Luke or Sinatra they'd be pissed and wouldn't use this metaphysical arguement to justify anything

<JimGunn> Yes no doubt that Wstern society owes a lot to Judeo-Christianity but nevertheless now in hindsight, we can apreciate that it's all a chance accident of history , not any kind of divine intervention in earthly affairs by a brown-haired completely incongruous, illogocal manifestation of Jesus Christ

* JimGunn 's little known historical fact. Aramaic, the language Jesus spoke (not Hebrew contrary to popular belief) is still a living, albeit obscure, language spoken by a few hundred toa few thousand people in what is now Syria

<l-keford> i study talmud in aramaic all the time

PRIVATE CHAT

<BrandyAlx> If you don't mind, could you possibly ask what EXACTLY it is
that I'm banned for? I mean, I haven't received any quote from the sacred
rule book, and I'm sure there's nothing in there about having an opinion
different from someone else's being an offense.
<Mastrick> I believe that your particular ban has been set by Diablo; you
are welcome to appeal it to the newsgroup alt.binaries.nospam.pst, as I
certainly am not gonna lift another op's ban.
<BrandyAlx> I wasn't asking you to. I just never really received a precise
reason for the ban other than Bianca doesn't like me, and I don't think
that's a valid reason. I certainly have not behaved as Kendra is
accused. In fact, I have never personally attacked anyone in the channel
except those who have personally attacked me. And THEY happened to still
be permitted.
<BrandyAlx> Go figure.
<Mastrick> Well when you have 18 different ops it is important to respect
one another's wishes when it comes to bans. Personally, I have no beef with
you; when you get things straightened out with Diablo you will be welcome
in the channel when I'm here
<BrandyAlx> You implied that I absolutely was not welcome by the defensive
nature of your comments on l-keford.com when he blended several chats.
<BrandyAlx> That's sounds like a few too many ops. Shouldn't your
"by-laws" limit that?
<Mastrick> my statement was one of fact; I said that you are banned by
ChanServ and indeed you are. Your attempted entry was indicative of that.
<Mastrick> What is is, what isn't isn't.
<BrandyAlx> Diablo's just still in a huff because he got a dose of his own
medicine with the posting of his real name, and he doesn't have NEARLY as
much to lose as I did. I guess now he knows how it feels and his guilt has
left him bitter and angry.
<BrandyAlx> What does that mean? The only way to see if a ban is still in
force is to try to join.
<Mastrick> I find all of this conflict tiring and totally irrelevant. I've
said my peace on this subject time and time before.
<BrandyAlx> So the ops don't ever, for any reason, get together and discuss
the ban list? You try to make yourselves look like an organized group with
your awards and everything, but this approach makes it look like nothing
more than an ego-fest.
<Mastrick> What's relevant to me is all the stuff that women like 'Nina,'
Bo Saint, Kelly Havel, and the like are doing now. All the stuff on the
periphery is superfluous and meaningless to me.
<Mastrick> So it's gonna get stuck in my outbasket time and time again.
<BrandyAlx> So you have the same opinion on this awards junk as what I've
heard from others?
<Mastrick> What I'm referring to is all of these conflicts that have
occurred in the past.
<BrandyAlx> I think what bugs them is that I question their actions so
intently. They don't know why they act the way they do so they get made
when I try to make them think about it. Too much thought for some of the
psyches in there. ;)
<BrandyAlx> They don't want to look and see how foolishly they behave.
<BrandyAlx> My whole point is there is no valid reason for the ban in the
sense of the rules of the chat. You guys know that. You may not want to
lift another op's ban, but you should certainly question it if it doesn't
fall within the parameters set out by the founder.
<BrandyAlx> These are rules you are expected to abide by. When others
break them for petty reasons they should be called on the carpet.
<Mastrick> You gotta take that up with Diablo. You have no other
alternative. All of this conflict is tiresome and boring to me
<BrandyAlx> So basically you don't give a poop about the rules either.
<BrandyAlx> You're an op, I would think you ops should take it up with
Diablo. Unless, as I have always believed, you guys are afraid of him and
that he can evict you from the chat without cause as well, and then the
others who did not oppose him would not come to YOUR defense.
<Mastrick> Your problem is with Diablo - your case is not sufficient to
overrule his decision. And I quite frankly have noticed that you have had
other conflicts in the past
<BrandyAlx> You pretty much said you only care about the communication with
the porn stars.
<BrandyAlx> In PsT?
<BrandyAlx> What does any past conflict have to do with the present. Let
me put it to you this way. Let's say I had past conflicts. I was
permitted back in PsT for many, many weeks until Bianca returned fro the
road. Then, suddenly, I was banned again. It's obvious that PAST problems
were gone and forgotten. Clean slate and everything.
<BrandyAlx> So whatever you're referring to as past is totally irrelevent.
<BrandyAlx> The ban for PAST had been lifted and there is NO reason for the
current one. Period.
<Mastrick> As I have indicated, I have no beef with you. Your ban is in
ChanServ; you must see Diablo personally about lifting it
<Mastrick> You know how IRC works - you've been playing with this stuff
longer than I have.
<BrandyAlx> Well, I know how it's supposed to work, which is different from
the way Diablo and Crew works it.
<BrandyAlx> Besides, why does it all rest with Diablo? If his ban is
invalid, meaning it doesn't fall within the "rules," why doesn't VideoEd
just lift it. Diablo has said more than once that it's Ed's channel.
<BrandyAlx> If Diablo's just playing god on his whims...